This week’s virago preferred to fight with her naginata and her band of warriors, the all-woman powerhouse combat unit called The Jōshitai (娘子隊, Girls' Army). Nakano was not only a warrior and a community organizer, she was also the last Samurai of Japan. Experience the courageous battles of The Jōshitai and then meet a part of my legacy and the “OG” virago of my life- my mother & muse, Ms. Tia Powell Harris. *TRIGGER WARNING* This episode contains sounds of war. You may hear rapid gunfire, weeping, explosions, intense gore, general violence, screaming, babies crying, blood gushing, and/ or sirens.
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SHOW INFO
This podcast was created and hosted by ChelseaDee
This podcast was executive produced by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams.
This episode features the vocal performances by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams
Our theme song, “Crown On”, was created by Niambi Ra and Le’Asha
Theme song available for purchases here
Our logo was created by Denzel Faison
Host 0:58
Pretty good out there! See they've been practicing. And they've got one hell of a good teacher, The Last Samurai of Japan. Her name was Nakano Takeko.
Nakano came of age at a time of great social unrest in her country. Some folks want to European foreigners and influence out of Japan, and other folks disagreed. our countrymen were at war with themselves, a war between families, a civil war, one of the bloodiest kinds of war.
Unknown Speaker 1:52
Oh, no, I have trained you very well. To go as far as even adopting you as my daughter. Yes,
Host 2:00
thank you master.
Unknown Speaker 2:02
Your generosity and faith in me is humbling. The time has come to honor me greatly. Become a proper wife. Start your family now.
Host 2:13
But our country is at war with itself. start a family. Now. We
Unknown Speaker 2:20
Samurai our ways could be lost forever. I cannot sit by and do nothing.
Unknown Speaker 2:27
Do nothing. To honor me is your highest duty, get married?
Unknown Speaker 2:34
I am sorry.
Host 2:36
I cannot. I must fight. And with that she rode to the only place she felt safe. A place where she could think clearly create a plan of action. At home and while she rode home, she thought I can't believe I told him no. I defied him. But in my heart of hearts I know I must do what is right. I must preserve my culture our ways. Without our culture, we will forget ourselves. Who will we be?
Tomoe Gozen in all of our great fighters cannot be forgotten.
Tomoe Gozen. an archer in a swordsman worth 1000 she fights the gods and demons mounted and on foot. She wrote unbroken horses into battle, leading her 300 summarize against an army of 2000. She defeated that army and took heads as she went. They sent her out to battle First they said with a sore five times bigger than her and a mighty mighty bow. She was a great warrior. Her master fell injured during battle. He insisted she leave his side. He said it would bring this honor to die near her a woman so to mow a road into another battle took the head of the enemy's leader and brought it back to her master. This earned her great respect. And this is how she became known as Japan's first gen.
Maybe one day, I can prove myself worth a lot to mow a dead Remembering tommo always sparked something inside of Nakano. I will return home, not to cry and wait for the war to come. Now, I will teach my community to fight. That's very good mother. Just remember to thrust from the center. That's your core strength. Middle sister. Wrong. Your form is all wrong. You know better than this? Yes, that's better. That is how you strike a deathblow.
training was going well, but the dangers of the war, we're coming closer and closer.
Something must be done. forces are advancing from the west. They will be here any day now. What can we do? We are just women and children here. You know what they would do to us when they come You know, then we must prepare to fight back or fight. First.
Unknown Speaker 6:28
daughters. We have the training the weapons and the will. We could attack them. fight them back before they get here. together. We fight or tonight. You must kill me.
Host 6:51
We know what they will do to our bodies. The dis honor. We will die before we allow that. Girls, will you join me? Will you lead us? Yes mother to the end. And that night, the Joshitai was formed, and all woman band fighters, sisters, mothers, students, concubines and samurai. No one asked them to fight. In fact, no one wanted them to fight, but they fought with such bravery and ferocity that they became a lethal collection of local women and girls in combat. Nakano became known for taking on modern weapons against her prized naginata she was determined to fight the samurai way.
There is no way around the Inaki bridge, they will have to cross past us. What should we do in advance head on? That's suicide mother.
Unknown Speaker 8:19
It is our only hope.
Host 8:22
We must advance head on deal as much damage as possible. And if we die, then we die with honor little sister. All the women of our clan will die with honor.
The Joshi pty advanced. The man was surprised to see the women the general audit his troops not to attack but they were just a bunch of women and girls.
The men's hesitation gave the Joshi Thai time to inflict heavy casualties. Locarno killed six men before she was mortally wounded. Stay with me. You fought so bravely. I'm so proud of you. But now is the time you must you must kill me. Take my head and give me a proper burial. I am No Man's War trophy.
Unknown Speaker 9:39
honor system. Do this
Host 9:52
daughter. You are exhausted from fighting. Let me perform this duty
Unknown Speaker 10:08
Thank you mother.
Unknown Speaker 10:11
I want to must be done now.
Unknown Speaker 10:15
She carried her sister's head from the violence of the battlefield to acquire pine tree near temple.
Host 10:23
She buried the head and gave her sister the proper burial she deserved, for all her bravery, courage, and love.
Little sister gave Nakano's treasured naginata to the nearby temple, where it rests To this day, protecting all those who pass beneath it. Since the beginning, we've been that women are always seeking the system state when they give us rights, but we can go hand in the business of brave people of the van God, gals, guys and everybody in between. Have you checked in with your heart today? How you doing? What's making you Bloom? Welcome to another episode of vanguard of the Viragoes where we revisit the heroines of human history to learn from this hidden archive of treasures. I'm your host as with the most s Chelsey D. I'm currently in Washington DC, and I want to uplift that I am on the ancestral lands of the necochea tank and a causton and piscataway peoples. I want to also uplift the generations of mothers who have birthed the hands and lives that have loved and protected this land for longer than any of us have been around. To those still fighting to protect the air, land and water that we need. I think that's a bit of an accessibility check in. I'm doing okay, today, I've got a little bit of fun going on in my throat, it's probably from being up late recording stuff. So that that's how I'm doing. And this is the portion of the show where I chat with a special guest. And today's special guest is very special. I just like to tell stories. I'm a creative who is addicted to diverse representation and storytelling for the stories we tell mold the people we become. But my guests on this show are folks who are actively studying preserving, and dare I say, making history. These are the real heroes. And today's hero is my mother. Miss Tia Harris. Welcome. Hey, Joe. Oh, it's so it's such an honor to have you here, especially for today's episode, which is focusing on the dynamics of mothers and daughters in wartime, which is a remarkably striking for today's, you know, for today's so it's really perfect. really perfect to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for being here with us. It is such an honor. It is such an honor. All right. So let's do let's do a quick check in how are you doing? What's making you bloom today?
Unknown Speaker 13:55
Oh, my goodness, the sun is shining. Through my windows. I am breathing easy. And all is well on the northern front in Washington, DC. So it's good. It's a good day.
Host 14:10
It's a good day. Yes. I've recently heard this phrase. The sun is shining and the wind is blowing. like yeah, that's that's pretty much all you need.
Unknown Speaker 14:23
And then, and then this weekend, the snow will be snowing. So we get the full rain here
Host 14:29
in DC Ray range, all of it. Oh man. So I'm just so I'm so glad to just dive in with you because you are so dynamic is the word that I like to use so multifaceted. you've worn so many hats. you traverse so many industries. But I there's there's a there's a through line in what you do so talk To us, tell us your area of expertise. How would you describe the work that you do? And, you know, anything you're working on right now? Okay. Well, Tia, she her,
Unknown Speaker 15:14
let's just get that clear, straight straight out of the blocks, who I am as a person, the daughter, the sister, the mother, the friend, the creative really has influenced my trajectory, in the things that I love to do. I have a theatre background. I work as an educator or curator, and inspirator. But who I am, and my background in theater is the key to understanding who Tia is, and what influences my curation, and my inspiring abilities. So theater to me, is the one all encompassing art. I mean, when you think about it, it's storytelling meets visual arts, storytelling meets dance, storytelling me to music, and it's that convergence that I love. So my signature in anything I do, whether I'm in the classroom, whether I'm at a cultural institution, whether I'm at a historic site, is to bring a multi arts perspective, to the experiences that I'm creating, for, for people. That's where my passion lies. And second half of that is, because I've worked at some very, very cool cultural institutions. I've been drawn and deepened my commitment to community, and bringing community online. And you know, I have to say, communities of color in particular. So as a teacher, you know, at Ellington, I was I was influencing young minds, particularly students of color. And then in New York and Brooklyn, I'm reaching out to community at the Kennedy Center, I'm reaching out to community with the power of the arts, and its ability to change lives. At this very moment. I am what I call a delicately call me humanities advisor. Because it's become time for me to pass the torch. And I think I can best do that by by being a mentor and advisor, or whatever the next generation of cultural barriers needs. Wow.
Host 18:01
But it's so you know, it's so apropos, because one of the things that has really stood out to me with with with curating the guests who I'm going to be interviewing for this season, is, you know, some of them study the classics. And some of them, you know, they mentioned that there is this divide that people of color do not feel welcome in a lot of these spaces around history, there isn't a feeling of this is yours, too. And I think about I've been telling these stories to to these, you know, antiquities experts about how I went to the Duke Ellington School of the Arts, in high school, which you were one of my teachers. And we did a production of antimony when I was in high school. And so I was exposed to this level of language and these images and just the epic scale of these ideas and characters. And y'all as a faculty and folks made me feel at home in this thing, you know, and so, fast forward to 2021. Here I am, like, the holding the, you know, really evangelizing that we have a place in the classics, we have a place in ancient history. And I would say that comes from so much of what y'all did to create that environment at the Duke Ellington school, the arts. So thank you,
Unknown Speaker 19:27
you're welcome. It's it's an obligation, you know, I mean, if we don't prepare the next generation of culture bearers, and arm them well, in whatever way we can, then I was lost. But if we do our job, then the culture and the humanism continues in ways we could not imagine because every generation is an improvement on the last, but we got to make sure you get the right tools to do And that's, that's, that's been my goal. Yeah.
Host 20:04
Absolutely fantastic. All right. So let's dig into a little bit about this, this bburago that we're focusing on for this episode. Nakano to Keiko, who along with her family members, her mother and her, her little sister formed the Joshi tie, which was this old all fam band of fighters who were no not invited. I always loved the fact that people were like, no one once you hear no one asked you to fight by like, No, nobody wants to hear but they would like we are. We're who is left where we are. And we have to do something. We don't want to sit and wait to be brutalized, basically. So did you ever heard of of Macondo? Do you have any connection to Japan? Or
Unknown Speaker 21:00
I'd never heard of Nakano? Oh, but as I, but as I listened to the demo that you sent me, of course, we can, because because in our family, in our family, there's a strong connection, generational connection, and we receive so much from those that came before us, right? We're really into that kind of feminine power and what it can do for you, if we'll did well, right. And so that's, that's always at our, at our core. And we, we come from a family of educators. And so by nature, we, we teach to learn, right? So so it's not facts that you learn, you learn how to learn, and then it becomes a lifelong learning, experiment, right or an experience. And so the whole notion of the mothers and the sisters and the grandmothers and all of that in this story, just transported me in two ways. So transported me back to that notion of literally we would die for each other. As powers and and Harrisons, we would die for each other, but also, we support each other in any in any way we can, even when it gets gruesome, right, even when it gets gruesome. So that part of Macondo story was very,
Host 22:51
very familiar,
Unknown Speaker 22:52
very, very, very familiar to me. Now, God forbid, that you or anyone should have to cut my head off after a difficult war and bring it bring it back. But I am, I am assured that with my women folk surrounding me, I could easily die with honor. And so that was very touching to me that was very touching that the depth of that connection, right, and the strength of the women. But then on another level, this, this transporting, hit me with the with the soundscape that was very Japanese, it was strongly Japanese. It took me literally transported me back to the time many years ago, when I visited Japan, I visited ancient forests, I visited Buddhist temples, I visited Japanese tea houses, right and so that immersion was just piqued when I listened to this story, because environmentally, that's a part of the relationships that we that we that we create with our with our women folk. So yeah, it was really it hearkened back to that trip. And in a really, really, really good, good way. Good way. But it also, you know, this whole notion of is a very special little, little childhood story. My father insisted that I take martial arts when I was very, very young, when I was very young. And I hated it. I absolutely hated it. Because I was the only girl in the class. I had to break the boards, which I couldn't do. I had to do all of that. Steph and I would cry. And eventually, my mother talked him into letting me not going not go anymore. But I can only imagine if I had those martial arts in my Farago toolbox. And if I pass that on to you, oh man talk about badass, there was no nothing no stop and no stopping. So are so many levels, this story spoke to me.
Host 25:28
Oh, wow. And there's so much in what you were saying that, um, that really stood out to me. And I want to start with, I told you this was gonna flow free. But I was gonna start with feminine leadership, you know, you have, you have played some executive roles in some major cultural institutions. And I'd like to hear a little bit more about how would you define feminine leadership? Are there obstacles people should be aware of or that you've overcome, that you'd like to talk about? But like, what is feminine leadership to you? What is leading from a femme place? mean to you?
Unknown Speaker 26:12
You know, I think the feminine instinct is one of our strongest superpowers, right? And so, by necessity, because many times where I was landing in the cultural landscape, was not populated by women executives or women, you know, in leadership roles. I had to develop this grit, this this. take no prisoners, kind of kind of approach to my work. This, I had to bring the strength forward. But couple it with that feminine intuition, which I think is what makes us as leaders, so extraordinary, the mix of being able to be those things combined, right. Our, our condition, as black women in this country has forged an in penetrable armor. And that's very useful. That is very, very useful. But we can also take off that, that armor head right, and touch and feel and soothe in ways that are invaluable. Aha, I think it's a constant. It's, it's, it's an eternal struggle. But if you allow the struggle to wait you down, then it damages your inertia, right? So I'm aware of it. I'm cognizant of it. I hit it head on. But it doesn't diminish me anymore. Now, when I was younger, it was a people pleaser, which is another feminine facet. facet. I think sometimes for us. It was troublesome, it was extremely troublesome to me because I want you to respect me and like me. Now, I know the work is so important. And I don't really care if you like me. I deserve your respect. But if you aren't able to give it freely or to show it, I'm cool with that, because I'm going to do what I need to do anyway.
Host 28:51
You know what I mean, that is just such a lesson beyond biology, beyond gender beyond social constructs is how are we? How and why are we carrying the burden of some of these things? And how can we release them so that we can really be at our full potential, you know, what I mean, as opposed to being stunted by external expectations and then internalized expectations?
Unknown Speaker 29:19
One of the things that's important in this comes from an educators perspective, is, is
Unknown Speaker 29:28
it's important, it's important for us to leave to, to allow our identities to flourish, to create our own identities, right and allow them to flourish. flourish. And I think the history and the stories of these incredible black, melanin Brown, you know, women is identity beauty. Building and fortifying. So the more I know of those that came before me, the more I'm able to establish myself firmly, in what I know I need to do. So the influence of history, the influence of history is paramount. And you know, in this country, and we've discovered this, most recently, through this newly unveiled or newly discovered by some social injustice in America, I still don't understand people who didn't know that this was that this was here. But the educating process has to change, and it has to change so that it tells the truth, it tells the whole story. And it celebrates those historical figures both every day and extraordinary, that haven't been introduced, that's important to the forming of identity in young people. And so I think what you're doing with the with the Virago series is maybe even more important than you know, because that's the tool by which we can bring people into their own understanding of who they are, and how they fit in, into the world. It's, it's the, it's the standing on the shoulders, right? It's the ancestors are in the room moment. So it's really, really important for us to re envision how we teach the history. And who we teach it to because it's not only important for, for black and brown youth, to know their history to identify and be empowered by it. But non black and brown people need to understand and to celebrate the situation, too. So I'm talking about universal re education. And you know, who, you know, that just takes me, takes me to Jimmy, you know,
Host 32:01
Jimmy Baldwin, Jimmy Baldwin has a quote, If you hide one part, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna paraphrase it. And of course, this is not going to be eloquent. But his whole point is, if you hide one portion of your history, you hide all portions of history. And this is actually from what I'm thinking, the quote is from his talk to teachers, and he was talking about, you have to teach the whole history, you have to teach the ugly parts, the dark parts, the scary parts, because what you have to understand is that by covering black history and black contributions, he was speaking specifically about black folk. But by covering this up, you are also covering up your history as he was speaking to white people, you know, so what you don't know about us, you also will not know about yourself. And that was something that was really profound to me when I when I read that essay, because he or speech that he gave, because he really dug into American educational culture, and the tendency to not really illuminate all, all that is there. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I'm thinking about the 1776 Commission or report or something 1776. But it's, it's a it's a reaction to the 1619 project, which I'm sure you're familiar with, with the New York Times and Nicole Hannah Jones. But the 1776 project was the Trump administration's response to the 1619 project, patriotic history. patriotic history, right? It's a it's a proposal about patriotism, we should only be learning history that that that paints America, yes,
Unknown Speaker 33:50
yes. patriotic. Yes, you are not a patriot. You're not a patriot. You are not patriotic, if you bring to light, the systemic racism, this this inherent problematic aspect of our history. So so well, what that does really, you know, I mean, that that, that that couches, that cushions that protects white privilege, right? If you don't know that, if you don't know the whole story, then then white privilege can stay intact. But once you know, the entire story, the real story, the beautiful story, the ugly story, then you begin to question white privilege. And that's a dangerous thing. And so his I think his goal in all things was ultimately to not achieve equality, social justice, some balance of equilibrium in the country, but to preserve white privilege at all costs. And I think so. So, um, let me tell you, there's, there's there's this favorite quote of mine, so I'm really into Visual Art right now. Right and And what what art should do. So I'm going to go along with Jimmy and I'm going to say, and he said something similar to this. That art, and this is the importance of art. This is why art is so critical. The arts and art and visual art, in this re education of America, is because it has the potential to do this. And this is what this is what this quote is, art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. So what this the core to me, of this re education of America, is to bring that disturbing part forward. Because that's the only way to clean it up. You can't, you can't get rid of it, unless you first acknowledge it, feel the disruption in your soul and move on, move on from it. Right. And so this this, this patriotic curriculum, I think it you know, we've had this curriculum to go along with it is, is not, it's not going to do what this country needs it to do. You know, we got to, we got to use art, to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. And that's and that's my, that's my kind of leading thought for the re education and new curriculum is yes, let us make the children slightly uncomfortable. Yes, let us comfort those who are feeling ilet ease, right. So I'm talking, as you can tell, I'm talking, I'm speaking from not only an educational perspective, but an emotional one, because our current situation is wrought with emotion. And we got to deal with that.
Host 37:04
Mm hmm. You know, I am always thinking about that Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. And like, you know, I recognize there's, there's on the back end, after, after, after the confessions, you know, questions of amnesty, you know, it gets a little dicey. But I do think that there is real value and being able to just say, this hurt me, you did this. I did that, you know, what I mean? What I was saying workshops, when we were still going outside was open, you know, I would say we would have these we set room agreements with folks, as teaching artists, we would have oops, ouch agreement, which is, we agree that sometimes we make oops, and that, oops, causes an Ouch. And it's not that you are a terrible person, and you should be you know, annihilated. And it's not that you are always going to be beaten down and you know, victimized that's not, you know, we can we can we can have, there's so there's so many other possibilities on the other side of the truth. Right? And I love to think of, now let's get to the archives, because I love to think of archives. And I think that you were the you probably you were the one who introduced me to archives archiving, that, you know, your work at the National Portrait Gallery really opened the door for me to feel comfortable in, in archives and in a place where, where history is being kept and preserved and curated and nurtured and whatnot. So I'm thinking about why I love archives, though, and it's because this relates to something you were saying earlier, it's the receipts, you know, and I use that phrase receipts, like, this is evidence, you know, that, that excellence and courage and valor existed, which means it has to exist now, you know, I mean, so I can't, it becomes hard for me to accept whatever the prevailing narrative is, if I have these receipts, how do we explain Nakano Nakano? I got to figure out the fastest on the rice lab. When you have the receipts of the Joshi tie, how do you how do you really settle for someone telling you, you just gonna have to take this beating, you know what I mean? It's, yeah, but I do recognize that there are people who can physically fight, but that there is so much mental and psychological. And like you mentioned earlier, emotional work that has to be done before you can really combine the physical With the internal and spiritual,
Unknown Speaker 40:04
you know, so I'm going to go back to so that I'm going to want to pick up on something you said about the archives. And this, this, this is all you know, it's all connected, right? So when I, when I, when I discovered the richness of archival work, I came at it from a curatorial perspective, you know, an education curator, if you will. And I was working at the Portrait Gallery and delving into their collection, all the time complaining, and saying to the powers that be at the Portrait Gallery, you will not attract diverse audiences if they do not see themselves. And if they don't see this place as a safe space for their learning and experiencing, and they won't see that unless they see themselves not only on the walls, in the portraits, but also in the staff, etc, right. So I start going through this archives. And it's amazing. Now based on my prior experience with a Portrait Gallery, I did not know that they had such a rich collection of portraits of people of color. Now the central question becomes what happens when the curators aren't bringing those receipts forward. So it can live in the archives all day, all night, all year, for millennia, right. But if there is no one bringing it out and forward, then it's not doing the full job that it can do. So this is another reason I like working with young, young artists who you know, and creatives and makers or curators, because what they're doing is they're pulling those receipts out of, you know, out of the collection. And they're building a story around them and presenting them in what, whatever way they whatever way they choose. But there's that's the reason. So you've heard me say this before, and I'm gonna say I'm gonna say it forever black is a lived experience, right? And who better than to tell my story, or to tell that story of marginalized, disenfranchised people, then someone in the lived experience, so a call for curators of color to mine those archives, from their experience as a live person of color is critical. It's absolutely critical. And it also feeds into controlling the narrative. Because we need to begin to control the narrative, we need to begin to pull the receipts bring them forward for all to see and enjoy and grow from right. And comparatively speaking, it's the same for curriculum. So who decides what's in the curriculum is incredibly important. So it comes full circle to who's at the table, who, who is at the table, because we are needed at every single table in order to bring these gems forward in a way that only we can do. And I'm not talking exclusionary tactics here. I'm talking about joining forces. So bring in that work out of the archives. It has to be seen, it has to be seen. And it's a teaching and growing tool. Because you would you would be you would be surprised. And I'm not just talking about the Portrait Gallery. I'm talking about the the whole of the Smithsonian. The artifacts, objects and artworks that the Smithsonian holds that could tell a multitude of stories is just, it's incredible. And so I often have to question I'm so happy about the new black museum on the Mall. So I have to question Okay, so when y'all go and bring these out, when are you when are you all going to balance them in? presentation? Right? And and that is what's beginning to happen. Now, you know, the fortunate part of this.
Unknown Speaker 44:43
I don't know this, this this period of, of discovery of racial injustice, is that now as I notice it, museums and art galleries etc. They are digging deeper into their collections there. Trying to find any and everything that tells the story that they haven't frickin told for 200 years, right? So I mean, there's a good set to this this diversity, equity and inclusion, stuff that's happening, you know, a good suspect at sometimes because if here's what I do, I will go literally, I will go to the museum, look at their diversity statements, and then I'll see what programming they're doing. And then I go, and I look at their staff, and I see if their staff represents the represents the statement, right? So now there's a way for us to be to hold people accountable,
Unknown Speaker 45:43
right? So it's getting better, it's gonna get better, it's gonna get better. That was a long story, but that are important that
Host 45:50
that our cost is really, really important. It's, it's, it's crucial. It's absolutely critical. And like, the idea of the importance of the curator, the importance of who's in there, bringing these things forward, you know, is so crucial, I was thinking about, and I hate to bring this up and not know exactly the person's name, but there was like, some lawmaker who and he was like, it was one lawmaker, like a lone lawmaker who voted to not have a new museum be built to highlight Latin x people. Oh, no, I didn't, I didn't realize Yes. And so, you know, this person, this person voted to not allow for a budget for money to be put aside to build a museum. And the reasoning was, it's divisive. So if we have a museum that's talking about Latinx experience in America, that's harmful to America, or it's like, it's going to tear America apart to talk about this experience. And then we already have I mean, if people had to fight tooth and nail to get what you called the new black music, on the mic, I sorry. African American. It's like a National Museum of African American History and cultural there it is. That one, and then we also have the Native American Museum History Museum, that that was a long time coming. And I, you know, I just feel like communities have been, you know, fighting for forever to have our eye on our archives and our contributions, truly tabulated, preserved and shared, which brings me to, you mentioned something about the relevancy or whether or not museums and theaters and all these cultural institutions are going to survive. COVID is really dependent on how relevant you how in disposable, you make yourself to the communities that your institution is in, which means people have to be able to see themselves which means they will be able to invest in find meaning and purpose in your museum. You know, if I think about when you first started working at Weeksville Heritage Center, and the first time I went in, and I saw those, those gorgeous their portraits, the photographs, their portraits of black bodies, in these like beautiful, almost religious motifs and symbols, and I was like this place is for me, like this, this little waist this this little patch in Brooklyn, is supposed to be for me and I, I just gleaned so much confidence and so much pride in learning about Weeksville and learning about how the community which makes you think about the Joshi tie, how the community came together, to find their own material culture and preserve it, and you know, what, what it must have took, and give me your thoughts on this. What must it have taken for, for black people at the time of founding Weeksville? And then centuries later, rediscovering Weeksville. I mean, what, what has to be going through your head? What has to be propelling you to preserve your culture in the midst of a larger culture that doesn't see it as important or something, you know, to that effect, like, what do you think is the driver? How do we get Weeksville? How do we get the rediscovering of weak spills?
Unknown Speaker 49:52
Um, so the Weeksville the Weeksville story really We call it emancipation history, right? Because there's, there's the studying you can do of history from the institution of slavery perspective. But this, this thing, this this beast that that is Weeksville was a story. First of all that I'd never learned in school, talk about the re education of America. I didn't learn emancipation history, I didn't even know it existed. To me as a young girl. My history was based in the institution of slavery history, right? I didn't know that there were self determined. Freedom seekers in 1838, like, Who knew? Well, they know, right, they knew. Um, so it's all this is like, so this is really sort of complicated to me. But, um, so this, I think it's, I think it's, it's this self determination is born of struggle. Right. So out of the struggle comes the quality of self determination, intentionality, activism, and all those things that move a culture, a culture forward, right. So the fact that these men and women, mostly men, but there were some unnamed women, too, sometimes knew enough to purchase land. And what we now call the Crown Heights area in Brooklyn, and to begin to build homes, affordable homes, for free people of color, knowing that purchasing this land would also I think it was if the land was valued at $250 or more, they were then also afforded the right to vote. Right. So we're talking about really visionary community based movements happening in 1838. Right, which is amazing. And we know that that that the week's fail community lasted and two, for decades, right, more than two decades. And then progress happened, progress happened, right. So it was time to build new living quarters, right. And that is when the housing projects began to be built across, you know, New York and, and the industrialized nation actually. But that seed of determination still lived in that community, that the determination born of struggle and strife and pride, right. So when these historic houses were going to be torn down, the community came to bear on this situation, and demanded that their history be preserved. Now, it's very timely, because we're talking about the late 60s, early 70s, when the the civil rights movement and black power, and the Black Arts Movement were at their height. So people were predisposed towards celebrating their history, right, and acting in ways that supported that. So they demanded the preservation of these houses, and their history with an eye toward the future with an eye toward their children knowing who and what they were. And so to, to, to build a new building a new Weeksville Heritage Center, and 2014 that was completed in 2014 was the third phase of this self determination of this activism of this celebration of this pride born of,
Unknown Speaker 54:25
of determination, right? So we build this or they build this new center that surrounds the historic houses almost like a protecting space it it is truly a sanctuary. And that's the other. The other thing that that we do well is we create sanctuaries, out of necessity and out of love. We create sanctuaries, and we feel was a sanctuary, a safe place to work, you know and live. So we build this beautiful new building to continue this legacy continue this legacy. And people weren't comment. They weren't coming. And so I am so confused. I'm like, wait a minute, we're in the community of historic Weeksville. The seed lives on in these people, why are they not coming? Why do we not get this ease of continuing, you know, in this activist and self determined way? And so what we decided to do was to ask the community why you comments, you know, what this is for you? This is this is all about you, right? So we asked them, and that's critical. That's key. And we had to talk back, they told us why. And one of the reasons was, it don't look like it's for us. And that's where those beautiful images on all of the all of the the the glass came from. It was a message, it was a cue, it was a clue, it was an invitation, this is for you. Right, to just make it known to everybody. But that's something that I think museums across the country are going to have to do. I told that long story to grab at this point. museums and cultural institutions across the country, are going to have to build communities, not audiences.
Host 56:41
What's the difference?
Unknown Speaker 56:42
There's a difference in perspective there, right? Because if you deconstruct communities, you know, communities are supportive, communities are celebrated, Tory communities are safe. Communities are just communities are educated, all the things that build community, and the interconnectedness of people with each other, their history and their environment. If we as museums and cultural institutional leaders, think that way about building that with the community will be far more successful in improving relations, right, and being able to bring this reeducation to those communities, right. But if we continue to be concerned about numbers, and how many people came through our door, then we're not going to be able to sustain the good impact that we could have on the communities we live in. And I say the communities we live in, but truly in my dream world. Museums now have the potential museums and historic sites now have the potential to live in any community because of this new found virtual opportunity, right. And so now we can begin to build communities that are not only, you know, the neighborhoods in which we live, but far, far, far reaching. So our, our task now is broader, is bigger, and is deeper here, here. That's, that's what we can do. That's what we have the potential to do, when it comes in shifting the perspective and you know, the Course in Miracles used to say that we're a miracle is not this thing that that is set upon us, right? A miracle is simply a change in perspective. And so museums can make the miracles happen. If we shift our perspective, to now we realize we realized that we have to raise money, you know, we got to keep the doors open. We got to keep the staff staff hired. But then that is a new. A new task for funders and donors to wrap their heads around to is how do we support in a real financial way, the work of museums to impact improve and sustain communities through education, and entertainment, the arts and empowerment?
Host 59:32
Yeah, keywords sustain,
Unknown Speaker 59:35
every everything's got to change now, everything's got to shift. And if it doesn't, then it's all you know, bullshit. And people just talking, talking out inside of their mouths. So now, it's the Eddie Murphy, what have you done for me lately?
Unknown Speaker 59:52
You have to show me You gonna have to show me what you've done for me and that's what communities are going to be saying. What have you done for won't be late.
Host 1:00:00
If you know the answer is not ringing, ringing clear and loud, oh, well go somewhere else. So it's a
Unknown Speaker 1:00:15
it's a hard, it's a hard and horrible time on the one hand, but it's an amazingly it's it's potent. The potential for change and improvement and impact, real impact must surface impact is right in the palm of our hands.
Host 1:00:41
If we seize this opportunity. And we do it for me, I can't wait to you know, to re education plan for America it curriculum is released. Okay. Let's get on this this for this minute. ministration. Y'all need to come on now. I had two last questions. Yeah, cuz I mean, we could just, we could just, we could just go. And I'm like to get to these two questions. I'm like, having to curate these last questions. But so the last one of the last ones is? What question is haunting you, as we are in this place of potent potential? What's haunting you? What?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:23
I think it I think this harkens back to my earlier comment in that is, have we, as elder artists, adequately prepared the next generation of culture bearers, to institute the changes, the improvements, broad scale impact that needs to happen right now? Have we given you enough? Have we done our duty? Have we met our obligation have we fulfilled the criteria, you know, necessary to prepare the next generations for doing the good work, for doing the real work for picking up the mantle, for carrying the torch, and for if not crossing the finish line getting really close to it really close to it, that haunts me, that haunt some of the things that I some of the, you know, I don't always understand young people, I don't always understand them. But I have become comfortable with that, because I don't have to, I don't have to. But they do have to meet their responsibilities. But before I can expect the new culture bearers to meet their responsibilities, I have to be absolutely 100% percent sure that we met hours. And so that's what keeps me up at night. Do you have enough? Is your Virago toolbox filled to the brim? You know, with everything you'll need to go to?
Host 1:03:14
And that might haunt me now? That's like that is the one that keeps haunting question for every generation.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:23
You know, and you may you may always question probably the the ancestors on whom shoulder I stand wondered the same thing wondered the same thing. So you're never quite content with the answer. But it's important to ponder that and to work toward it, because you get closer and closer and closer to tooling you well.
Host 1:03:49
Oh, so rich, just so much. So much food for thought. Um,
Unknown Speaker 1:03:54
I think there's a second, I think there's a second part to that too. Um, and it's something that has has has become apparent to me, as I do more programming. And I and I'm not afraid I i embark upon fearless programming, which is what you must be you must be unafraid to tackle the tough subjects. I hold that I hold I hold that the arts. It is through the arts that black joy and black rage are shared. And it's there's an equilibrium there right. But the rage part is important. And so my other fear is that we won't tackle that rage part. People will will shy away from the rage part already when I when I noticed people sometimes they see a very they see a piece of art that is full of rage. And they shy away from it. But that rage is as important to articulate to share to overcome as the joy. So I fear that I fear that fear of rage will stifle our efforts will stifle our efforts. And so my fear is that we'll put the rage aside because it's too uncomfortable to deal with, to view to kind of, to kind of squish around with and will will only feel comfortable with the joy. We need both of them. That's how you arrive at harmony is is moving through that rage. Mm hmm. And you know, is it to come back to the beginning, as a black woman, you know, we've always been accused of being angry black women. And it wasn't until I began to explore the usefulness of rage, right and the ability to to create in a rageful moment.
Host 1:06:02
Audrey Lorde the uses of anger. There you go.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:07
There she is. Yeah, it's important. So those would be my two fears. You know, are you told enough? And are we ready? Are we ready to deal with equally with the joy and the rage
Host 1:06:19
of our experience? Because that's who that's who that's humanity. Humanity is not one note and being able to claim your humanity, humanity is about being able to play all the notes in that scale of a motion tray. So last question. Although this is really one of my favorites, and it's so much fun. Who is a Virago from history? Present or or past? Who you'd like to hang out with? maybe grab a drink, maybe go get dinner, hang out in passing.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:59
Okay, so that's what I was gonna qualify, I was totally gonna qualify. I would say that I I would love to hang out with the word warriors, the word warriors of those voices in 20th century, poetry in particular. Who were able to weaponize their words in a way that made a place in the world for me. And you know who they are. They're Nikki Giovanni Audrey Lorde. Sonia Sanchez, Gwendolyn Brooks, Lucille Clifton. Gwendolyn Brooks, that's, it's, it's that it's those women, it's those women because they, they, along with the women of my family, they carve this place for me. And they forged a path that allowed me to understand and know that not only could I arrive, but I have arrived. And so I give them all props for that. And I pull them out. I pull I pull their books out, right. Um, and and those those that are still around like maybe Nikki Giovanni, I kind of stock her just to get that stuff just to get that stuff. Right. So that's, that's who I would hang out with. That's who I would hang out with.
Host 1:08:35
What a great so I find myself doing a very similar thing. You know, sometimes I get off Twitter doing my, my Doom scrolling. I don't even have a Twitter account. I just follow various local journalists. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, Okay, I gotta just get my order. Lord, I gotta get my fire marks heavier brother, I got to make a little altar. It's almost like a little altar of God, I have to sometimes just call on because I to the Mac, sometimes. It's true.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:12
I mean, those women in particular, I mean, I'm, I'm loving. I'm loving contemporary, black female poets. I really do. I mean, Elizabeth Alexander, and of course, our inaugural, our our our poet, youth Poet Laureate, right. I love them. I love them. I love Gorman and write, and I love them. I absolutely love them. But, but it's that weaponizing words that was so important at the period that these women were writing. That that really words it helped me understand how powerful a poet can be. You know, their words, their words. can change things right? And words are weapons words are weapons and warriors need weapons. AKA no had the pole the pole are
Host 1:10:17
correct the naginata right.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so those are the ones for me. The word warrior. The women word? Yeah, yeah.
Host 1:10:27
Yeah, that's the first like poets I've heard the first pope. Yeah, it's I've heard which is, you know, just the beauty of having all y'all just assembling, you know, really feels like assembling a superhero team of people who are like, I does this, I knows this, I lives this, I loves this. And I'm opening, opening it up to you, it's, it's really an honor to like, just sit in here and just collect I'm so grateful that these these platforms that allow me to record because it's like more archiving, more archiving, we have to really preserve really Preserve. It is
Unknown Speaker 1:11:12
it is true, it is true. And I will say this, that you are that you're embarking upon the many projects you are and in particular, the, this Virago project is reassuring that we have indeed, we have indeed prepared you well, to take the mantle
Host 1:11:42
I will claim that oh, you know, just trying to live just trying to live up to the ancestors. Well, thank you,
I want to do our close out. This has been so just so rich. And I always love these conversations because as his walk away or fire, like, literally, you know, my partner and I are practicing Tai Chi, and some thinking a lot about like life for us and how you are harnessing your life for us. And so these conversations are like, so incredibly vital. You know,
Unknown Speaker 1:12:22
I mean,
Host 1:12:23
I just I can't thank you all enough. Thank you. Thank you for for joining me for this week and join me for life honestly.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:33
Thanks for providing a safe space. And I think that's really important. We have to feel safe enough to honestly share. Love you so much.
Host 1:12:46
All right, well, thank you to my guests for generously agreeing to speak with us. And thanks for thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of Vanguard Viragoes with Chelsea. This conversation and more resources and I'm going to plug this now. My mom and I are working on a curriculum. We're gonna have some tool to tools and weapons. Okay, I know that actually weapons but symbolic weapons words that will bring us into this this this new dawn. So keep up keep an eye out for us because because because we're coming. We're coming for you. So check us out on the website. Follow us wherever you subscribe to your podcast. This is a whole world. So dig in. And always remember, we are all on the vanguard of changing time. Be the difference. lead with love. The secret of women not manifesting is well. Last one wins arm through prs
Transcribed by https://otter.ai