This week’s virago is one of the greatest Muslim fighters the world has ever known, Khawla bint al-Azwar. خولة بنت الازور Khawla bint al-Azwar (Arabic: خولة بنت الازور) was many things. A poet, a nurse, a leader, a warrior, a sister. When her brother is taken captive by Roman soldiers, she makes the choice that only the bravest can imagine. This week's hero is Dr. Lindsey A. Mazurek *TRIGGER WARNING* This episode contains sounds of war. You may hear rapid gunfire, weeping, explosions, intense gore, general violence, screaming, babies crying, blood gushing, and/ or sirens.
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This podcast was created and hosted by ChelseaDee
This podcast was executive produced by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams.
This episode features the vocal performances by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams
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Unknown Speaker 0:24
Since the beginning we've been
Unknown Speaker 0:40
War is hell. It's been held for centuries. I'm standing on the rubble of a ruined yet sacred site. Here lies the destroyed grave of one of the greatest Muslim fighters the world has ever known. How lambin tell us why. It doesn't surprise me that the soldiers of ISIS tried to destroy this grave. How does grave was a reminder of her formidable power, the formidable power of all women. Her strength gives us all strength. So, destroy the grave, destroy the story, right? Wrong. Sit yourself down and get as cozy as possible. For I am about to tell you an incredible story about this great woman.
Unknown Speaker 1:43
We have to go back.
Unknown Speaker 1:46
Way back in time, to seventh century Arabia, present day, Saudi Arabia.
Unknown Speaker 2:04
I must free him. Poetry has inspired me to action many times before but tonight I need these verses now more than ever. I will find him and I will free him. And I will slay any man who tries to stand in my way.
Unknown Speaker 2:35
The Romans. Always threatening to invade, always spreading and conquering as all empires are want to do. And the opposing side, fighting back against invasion and protecting their homes. Human Nature on the battlefield, how her and her brother were of one mind. He leads the soldiers out and she is a battlefield nurse to those who are wounded. I sooth them with my poetry my steady hand stitching, cleaning, rubbing and working to protect and heal. Seeing these bodies these countless souls lying in agony it's it's almost too much.
Unknown Speaker 3:30
Khawla, your brother. He has been captured by the Romans.
Unknown Speaker 3:36
Captured I feel my heart jolt and quiver in my chest. All air is knocked from my body. My brother, my mentor my friend in Roman ends with them. He will be brutalized. We have seen what they do to their prisoners. heads on spikes. chests ripped open the savages. My precious brother my my blood begins to boil. There is no way they will take him from me and into his life. My brother will be free. I will taste Roman blood before I taste defeat. Because I am a woman. I cannot be seen as myself. I must disguise myself to get on the battlefield. I will wrap myself in black fabric. Tie Down my breasts with green fabric and cover my face with a veil. This way I can fight while undetected. That should do it. That girl blue That camp in to her bra, like an arrow. She pierced the enemy's line. They weren't expecting a fighter like her.
Unknown Speaker 5:10
This mysterious Black Knight. He rides like an arrow with no fear for his life.
Unknown Speaker 5:16
He may be the greatest warrior ever seen. Little did they know.
Unknown Speaker 5:23
I slashed and slit and slayed them where they stood. These Romans took the wrong man. They will feel my wrath tonight. They did not see me coming swift as the air before their last breath. Before long, I am covered in blood dripping with the stuff other men begin to surround me fighters, my brother LED and battle with Black
Unknown Speaker 5:49
Knight. I have never seen such courageous fighting against the Romans my life who have you warrior.
Unknown Speaker 5:57
They cannot see my womanhood. They will never allow me to do what I must do.
Unknown Speaker 6:06
Brave fighter. Tell us who you are.
Unknown Speaker 6:09
So we may pay you the respect you would do. I revealed myself to them. A woman a fighter. I am Hala batalla suar. I was here with the other women to help the wounded on the battlefield. But when I heard my brother was taken, I did what I had to do. We must help you find a
Unknown Speaker 6:35
great fighter. Lead the Way.
Unknown Speaker 6:47
Brother, you are safe now. No one will harm you as long as life flows through my veins. And that girl did not leave the battlefield. There was too much work to be done. Too many sick and wounded. Until one day her horse was injured in battle. She fell from her horse and was captured by the Romans. They brought her to a tent where there were other captive women. All of them chained frightened. They knew what came next.
Unknown Speaker 7:35
Brian Hawes, you our property now. And when we were done from battle, we will all pass you around and use you for our pleasure. You all be my best piece of meat. You will keep me nice and warm tonight. If you behave, I will make you my way.
Unknown Speaker 8:05
I would rather die in agony than to live in disgrace as your wife. I would rather burn in fire than let you lay one filthy finger upon me. I will have your head for this insult and I will be free. But I cannot do this alone. We must all be free. Women look at us. Look at what they've done to us, taken us from our people put us in chains mock us and now they mean to violate our bodies. How much do you plan to take? How long will you live as a slave? And why? So that they will not hurt you. They will hurt you anyways. We cannot wait or play along or hope the pain will pass. We must take action now. They must pay for the harm they do. We must fight them to free ourselves. Sisters fighters. Will you join me? Oh yes, they want to fight. They want to to hurt their captors. make them pay for all the humiliation and violence. They were sick and tired of war, destruction, rape and it waited for them all day and all night. They'd had enough of all the beating and the cooking and the cleaning. And they we even tired of bearing children for their captors. They wanted Roman blood and they would have it. The Poles that hold up this tent, pull them out of the dirt. We will use these poles To put holes in the men who wish to do the same to us, keep a tight circle. Listen to me clearly now. Do not let this circle break. If it breaks we die. Keep the circle strong and stab with the poles. Ready.
Unknown Speaker 10:18
Whores, we are back from battle. It is time to pleausre us all, WHORES!
Unknown Speaker 10:41
Khawla and the women killed over 30 Romans that day. The women got their freedom, and how law got the head of her captor. But he wasn't running his mouth much after that. In the Syrian village of sermon ISIL tried to destroy the legacy of how Khawla bint al-Azwar but you can never capture the wild spirit of a strong
Unknown Speaker 11:36
Brave people, gals guys and everybody in between. How are you doing today? Have you checked in with your heart? What's making you Bloom? Welcome to another episode of vanguard of the Viragoes where we revisit the heroines of human history to learn from this hidden archive of treasures. I'm your hostess with the most that's Chelsea D. I am currently in Washington DC, and I want to uplift that I am on the ancestral lands of the necochea tank and a causton and piscataway peoples. I want to uplift the hands who have loved stewarded grown food given birth to this land for longer than any of us can imagine. A quick accessibility check in I'm doing well today experimented with Zen caster, really loving the modern art making of podcasting, very glad to be here a little lower back pain, but I'm making it through. So this is the portion of our show, where after you have listened to hopefully a very entertaining collection of nine heroic Tales from all over the ancient and historic world featuring femme leaders, I am a creative who is addicted to diverse representation and storytelling. For the stories we tell mould the people we become, I think, but my guests on this show who are featured during this portion are folks who are actively studying preserving, and I would argue, currently making history. These are the real heroes to me. And today's hero that we are featuring is Dr. Lindsay mazurek. Thank you for joining me in this studio. I'm so glad to have you here. How are you?
Unknown Speaker 13:32
Thank you so much for having me, Chelsea, I'm doing all right. I mean about as well as really can be expected given what's going on today. But I'm really excited to be here with you and to talk to you about the ancient world and ancient women.
Unknown Speaker 13:45
Oh, so excited. So excited. Um, and I, you know, I kind of want to preface this by saying, I, I did not have any formal introduction to Dr. mazurek. Besides Google, I, I wanted to tell retell these stories share these stories about these historic heroines. And then I wanted to talk to folks who I felt might know a little bit more might be able to bring some context, you know, I'm an actor, but these people, you know, they're really studying this. And so I'm so glad that that you're here to bring context to this story, but also just the larger story of humanity and what we've done and I don't know, maybe give some insight on where you think we're going based on where we've been. I mean, I know that's like, total, you know, Dream Dream place extrapolation. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm curious to see, you know what you think?
Unknown Speaker 14:49
Well, I thank you so much. And I appreciate the vote of confidence in my my future telling.
Unknown Speaker 14:56
But I think
Unknown Speaker 14:57
it's also really exciting to have these moments. where, you know, academia and an arts can interact and talk to each other. It's I mean, the ancient Greeks thought that one of the best ways to worship and to explore their world was through drama. And so I think it's always really great when we can have these moments where we work together,
Unknown Speaker 15:15
making the connections, making the connections. Alright, let's let's dig in. Let's again, she can you share a bit with us about your area of expertise, you know, where your passion in history lies? What what area are you dealing with?
Unknown Speaker 15:31
So my main area of focus is the history and archaeology of the Roman Empire, I work particularly the sort of the second and third century CE II. And what drew me to this is that it's a really great laboratory to explore these big questions of things like living in a colonial space, reacting and sort of interacting with colonial power, and sort of the the ways in which those situations can produce cultural conflict, cultural change, cultural collisions, shifting identities and senses of self. All that was just really fascinating to me. And so the Roman Empire really is a wonderful place to explore all that we have a really rich array of material culture. My specialty is really sculpture, historical records, all that sort of stuff, it all comes together really beautifully in the Roman Empire. I've specifically been working on the study of this really interesting cults. So Egyptian religion becomes extremely popular throughout the Empire, beginning in the first century BC. And then by the second century AD, it's everywhere, everybody's worshipping ISIS and psoriasis and Osiris. And they become just this incredibly popular thing. And I really want to explore what happens to your sense of self as a Greek and Greeks are historically what we would call culturally chauvinistic to be very polite about it, they really think that they are the greatest and purest and most wonderful cultures. And so my argument is that you're picking up Egypt, your religion has to shift your, your understanding of something like that, and I think it does. And so I just finished a book on that, on that topic.
Unknown Speaker 17:17
Fascinating. You know, when I was looking into these figures, I came across ISIS, and I was like, this talk about a trove of just how deep you can go into the stories, I mean, the exploits and adventures and like, I'm so excited to just dig a little bit more into because I know it's scratching the surface, you know, of, of her of her or in what she represented.
Unknown Speaker 17:51
I feel like I've been working on this topic for, you know, 10 years at this point. And I still feel like there's so much more that I need to know about about ISIS.
Unknown Speaker 17:58
I mean, what what drew you What drew you to ISIS, in particular. So
Unknown Speaker 18:03
I always was really, I think it comes out of this interest in sort of trying to understand these cultural dynamics, I started out being really excited about looking at Rome and Egypt. And I got really excited about this group of mummies that got made and Roman Egypt were the they had these beautifully, like Greek style painted faces, on boards, and then they would be tied into mummies. So you'd be looking at mummy and like the top of it would be this Greek style porch. And they're really stunning. Like, they go from like Rembrandt style to Saison style. And they're really interesting in terms of, you know, we the study of things like skin color, and representation and, and clothing and dress and jewelry, because there's obviously a ton of like cultural values attached to all of those things. And there's such a diversity of those. I found them fascinating. And then they get, like, it's fundamentally a very Greek thing to do, to paint yourself like that. And then to tie it onto a mummy, which is, the Greeks found that they that mommy's very creepy, they had a lot of feelings about mummies. And there's just tons of these things. There's literally like hundreds of them. And then they have this amazing afterlife it in, you know, the history of European history, like Freud has won in his office. Really? Yeah, I mean, they did some creepy stuff, like they would just chop them in half or take the portrait off. And then mommies actually end up becoming medicine at some point where people would, like, make money. Yeah, I'm amazed that didn't kill people, but I'm not a doctor. So I'm not that kind of doctor. So there's a whole 19th century history of consuming mummies and unwrapping mummies. And then, you know, kind of having parts of mummies as sort of this talisman of protection. That's obviously also very embroiled in the history of 19th century imperialism over over Africa.
Unknown Speaker 19:53
Yeah, well, resonant there. When you when you mentioned when you first said the word colonialism, my My mind went to, you know, the most, I guess, recent, you know, historical point for me. So it's it's so fascinating to see like, these eruption practices and spiritual beliefs are constant consistently used reuse revisited. You know, there's almost a kind of, I don't know what what would you say like, Is it like a costuming? Is it a is your research front? You know, how, what is the reason? Do you think? I mean,
Unknown Speaker 20:34
I think that part of it is this desire to, I think humans very much want to know what it's like to be somebody really different from them. I think that there's, that's a very fundamental human trait. And I think that part of that is a desire to have power over others. And consumption is a way to have that power. And so now, I think a lot of these impulses come across through things like cultural appropriation. And so I think it's the same impulse, just taking a different form and different times in a different context. And so these, you know, some of the, what I'm looking at now, with these with these religions, it really is a desire to consume Egypt to control Egypt to say that greatness is the central and most important thing in the Empire, and everything else kind of has to go through it. And so it really is a desire to have in control that what has been considered traditionally, this strange far off unattainable place,
Unknown Speaker 21:23
what I find so beautiful about, you know, your area of focus in what you're unearthing through your researches, you're you're following the line to, you know, where were these, the culture that is being appropriated, that, you know, you're going to almost the source of that power, you know, almost, or maybe that is exactly what you're doing, which is so beautiful to track it to, you can't say that you are the center of everything, and as you consume these things, and yet, mysteriously, there is no lineage of where these things came from, you know, where these pieces pieces of cultural symbols of culture originated. If I find that I find it really beautiful, that you're finding that you're tracking that, you know, for people.
Unknown Speaker 22:17
Thank you. It's a really interesting, it's really interesting to watch some of the intellectual gymnastics that happen around it too, because they write these hymns about ISIS, like living in Athens, but somehow she's also from Egypt, because of course, they can't if you divorce her from Egypt, she has never meaning Exactly. Um, and so they come up with all of these crazy bizarre, some of the ugliest sculpture in the Roman world is trying to create make ISIS a Greek goddess, and it's just, it's amazing. This are the backhand springs that they're doing to pull this off.
Unknown Speaker 22:49
I mean, it sounds familiar. Sounds very contemporary. So let's talk a little bit about the Virago that this episode focused on. And I want to just talk a little bit about why I landed on the word Virago because I had heard it used it somebody. It was some movie and I think it was a period piece. And when I say that, I mean, it was some television or film piece that took place in like 19th century Europe. And so it was a period drama and they were like this Virago, and they were talking about this woman who was some type of business leader or whatever. And I was like, Huh, interesting word. I looked it up. And the first definition was like, loud, shrew, woven. And then the second and third definitions, were talking about the older, more original, like the etymology of the word and what it originally meant. And it was about valor, and courage, like a very courageous and brave woman. And so I thought, hmm, that kind of transmutation of the meaning of the word from its origins into his contemporary use, I thought would be a great way to talk about these figures, and then to also think about how things change over time, but, but do they, you know, how are they how, how are they in relationship with each other? So were you aware of how benteler suar before this, you know, audio demo I sent you.
Unknown Speaker 24:36
I have to admit that I was not, but it was is great to hear about her and she sounds fascinating, and I'm excited to learn more about her. So thank you for introducing me to somebody who's clearly worth studying. If there's anything an academic loves, it's another thing to study. We love We love finding new things to read about but I I think we kind of touched on this a little earlier, there's, there's so much about her story that ties into histories of women in that region in antiquity. And so it's really fun for me to kind of see as somebody who works on much earlier periods, and just sort of put her in this larger trajectory of stories of women who are able to claim power through sex and violence. Women who you know, exist in the sort of places where they invert gender norms. And even women who rebel against the Roman Empire, all of that's happening in this area, you know, hundreds, hundreds, if not 1000s, of years before Kala
Unknown Speaker 25:40
arrives, since it's so crazy that her story was actually one of the first that I found and it her, it just blew my mind that there was a that was there was someone who was captured. And traditionally, when you think about gender roles during times of war, if you are femme if you're a woman, and you are captured, in my estimation, or what I've come to understand is that you're just going to be a sex slave, like, you're just going to be subjugated. And like, that's pretty much it. And so reading her story, and seeing that she organized, this, this group of women to like really push back in that intimacy of the moment of, of when that sexual violence is supposed to occur. It blew my mind, because I was like, I'm a, I'm a modern woman. And that didn't That, to me, that was not an option to me was that I could not even fathom that. You could, that that's a possibility. You know, so her story really cracked open possibilities to me. So, I mean, how did this story make you feel? How did? How did it feel listening to it?
Unknown Speaker 26:56
I think I had many of the same reactions. I mean, anytime you do, sex is a really vulnerable moment for women. And for everyone really, um, but particularly the type of sex, whether it really is a rape scenario, right. And there's so much even layered on top of rape, than it is a moment where you, there's a lot of fear, and people who are able to sort of rise above that fear, and take that moment, for themselves and for their own liberation. It's, it's amazing, it's it's powerful. It's inspiring. Yeah. Um, and it's, it is something that we all, you know, hope that we could do, were we in that same situation. And so that is something that's, that's really incredible to hear about, and to see, and especially given the fact that actually, there are a lot of women in the contemporary world who do go through these experiences. So that's probably I think, what, what I think of when these moments, and who do have to experience this? And, you know, it could I think, for me, it also reminds me that that is still a major problem that exists in the world that we have to pay attention to. Yeah, does storytelling play a role in, in, in your research and in your work, or in the, in the process of your work anywhere? I think that anytime you make history, you have to recognize and I say make history in terms of like the actual creation of historical writing, you're making a narrative. And if your narrative is not coherent, if it's not compelling, then you're you're not really doing the work. And so my I'm currently in a classics department, but my last position was in a history department. And one of the things I really took away from being in that community, of intellectuals was the importance of narrative and the important the responsibility that we have as scholars to create narratives that are true, but also narratives that can communicate not only to the five other people who care about my topic, but to to a broader audience to be able to tell people, this is why what I studied matters, this is why, you know, we need to know more about ISIS, so that we can, you know, have more insight into these dynamics that we experience. And this is something that is very much at debate in in the field I work in, in sort of ancient Greek and Roman history. You can't just see antiquity or the past as something that's divorced from the present, because when you go back and actually read it, when I read 19th and early 20th century accounts of Roman history, what jumps out to me is actually not even the Roman parts. It's the parts that are responding to the moments that those people are writing in, even if I don't think they necessarily were aware of it. So for example, the other day I was on Twitter because there's there's a very active classics, Twitter, and I one of my colleagues at the University of Winnipeg was was posting these please really gross passages from the sky, right. Francis Hauer feels romanization of Britain and their their you know, their gross racially their gross about, you know, indigenous people. It's just a it's a it's a nasty work. But what that book is really about, it's, it's not about Rome, frankly, it's not about Roman Britain, that book is about the collapse of the British Empire at the beginning of the 20th century. And this guy's writing his history to try and say, No, we have a real responsibility, air quotes, a real, you know, need to view other people because they're not as good as us. And so the, the way he's framing his narrative is really about his moments. And that I can point to, you know, tons and tons of other people. And so when we write these things, we try to think that they're not responding to our moments, because that's ostensibly what we don't think we're supposed to be doing. But really, I mean, I'm writing about things that matter to me, now, I'm writing about experiences that I'm having it as I navigate, you know, 21st century United States, and also from my childhood back in Southern California, where these, these sort of issues of immigration and cultural contact, or things that that we all had to navigate as we tried to live together in one place. And so, you know, I think that we have a responsibility to recognize, you know, why am I not only to write a good narrative to recognize why we're writing the narrative that we're writing, and to acknowledge that the narratives that we're writing, you know, intersect with the world that we live in.
Unknown Speaker 31:13
It's, it's such a human activity to try to find your place in the world to give meaning to your existence. And to see this replayed over and over again, and I can't help but think about this current, you know, historical moment where, you know, in Washington, DC, there was this Riot at the Capitol. And one of the most fascinating things to me was the material culture of the riot, like, why are people wearing animal skins and horns, and, you know, learning that Vikings didn't wear horns and like, we're so aware, this cultural production of the imagination, which filters into the fashion, the props, the, you know, LARPing is a word that has been thrown around a lot to describe how people are kind of picking and choosing elements of, of other cultures in order to remake themselves or, or give context to themselves, you know, Oh, my gosh,
Unknown Speaker 32:25
there's so so many of my, my favorite colleagues are writing about the they symbols. And so like, like my colleague Curtis Dozier, up at Vassar, who incidentally taught me ancient Greek when I was 19. He's a lovely person. He's been running a website, where he documents all of these, you know, sort of, all right, white nationalist appropriations of these types of symbols. Wow, got a whole library of them. He's working about that. Yeah, it's very upsetting, but very good.
Unknown Speaker 32:55
Very good.
Unknown Speaker 32:57
Very good, because
Unknown Speaker 32:58
we got to, uh, we took we talked a little bit about this before we started recording, but, you know, my current obsession with archiving. And, you know, we've had to capture these things, like, I was reading about people who were downloading all of the, you know, conversations and chats from different, you know, extremists, apps and websites before they were taken down. And I thought, oh, wow, people, there are other people who feel the urgency to like, preserve this, or else. I don't know, different interpretations will become what is kind of taken in without really critical analysis, you know, so what have you learned about human connectivity and social networking, through studying the Roman Empire and your digital archaeology project.
Unknown Speaker 33:52
So I've been working with some with several colleagues, a bunch of different universities across the US and Canada to try and look at the ways in which people define their own connections through this practice that Roman Greeks and Romans both did this, but the Romans were really into it. So they were really into dedicating. We call them inscription. So basically, anytime you made a law when you died, if you dedicated the statue, sometimes just because you put up a plaque that had your name, and then it would sort of give us some social information. Often you get like, you know, son, or daughter of pueblos is a really common Roman name. Or the, you know, the guy who's in charge of this Guild, or the guy who holds this office or Who's this kind of priest. And so we're trying to take these texts and use some digital approaches to sort of explore the ways in which people situate themselves in their own networks. We were working particularly at Ostia, which is Rome's main port city in the second century AD. And I think one of the things that we've noticed More or less is that people do create these very small groups that are very important to their identity in ways that are quite similar in many ways, you know, by, by religion, by profession, by family. But just how durable these networks really are that the ways in which we put ourselves in these networks, and we think about these networks, and we, you know, identify with these networks, it really does pass down through generations and through long spans of time. And so I think when one of the things that does really show particular is, you know, humans really want to identify with others, they don't want to be individuals, and they don't want to be separated from the parts of their life that they think matter. And so it's, it seems a bit trite, but I think, for me, that's been really profound, to see just how much people really will hold on to these things for generations.
Unknown Speaker 35:59
Yeah, and the need to connect is so prevalent, even now, you know, with, with COVID, with, with how we are being forced to isolate our reliance on social media networks, and these different apps and platforms, and all of these things have really come to the fore as ways are for connectivity. And as a, as a theatre artist, it was particularly terrifying at the onset of the pandemic, because I realized the magnitude of implications that would have for all of my work, like, all of my work is based around getting people closer, bringing them closer to weapon further than six feet, you know, and speaking very loudly, all around them. You know, but at the same time, these very ancient primordial need to be together and tell stories and laugh. And
Unknown Speaker 37:02
it's interesting too, because one thing about that we've also discovered really is that there are places where people, people will congregate in different parts of their city, right, they'll go to the market square, they'll go to the temple, they'll go to, you know, the bars, Roma's loved bars, and they're very into bars. And you know it and that's where all these inscriptions are. They don't put them just randomly, like, they know where the people are going to mass. And so there is a sense to that we need to share space, in order to have this connection, in order to even be able to communicate this connection, like we all have to be together. And there's a sense that, you know, this separation is disorienting, because it's taking away our identity, it's taking away our ability to tell people who we are.
Unknown Speaker 37:50
Hmm. Right, which Oh, that makes even more sense of why we're seeing the level of, you know, protests from all corners of the political spectrum in the us right now. You know, having journeyed into a crowd at a protest once and seeing how many different people were there, I mean, there is a factions of of folk and realizing that this is also a social gathering, like, yes, there's a political and a very urgent social thing we need to reckon with. But this is also a gathering for people to come together and dance and play music and sing, sing their songs and wear their symbols. And this is all getting that little bit of social that we don't, you know, we're not supposed to be having right now. So like a favorite story of ISIS, or like, a favorite instance, or something in her history, or in her narrative that like, is something that you maybe think about often or is very inspirational to you.
Unknown Speaker 39:03
I think so the, the fundamental story about ISIS is to me, it's still I think, the most emotionally compelling. So ISIS is married to Osiris was also her brother, apparently, this is fine. In the mainstream world. This happens all the time. And so they they have another brother named Seth, who's a crocodile and he's sort of this evil god, and he, you know, Cyrus, get into a fight because Osiris is sort of this got light and Seth is it's got darkness. And Seth kills Osiris. And he chopped up his body into a bunch of parts and scatters them across. I mean, depending on who's telling the story, Egypt or the world. And so ISIS is devastated. And she goes on a quest to find all of these different parts of Cyrus's body and she has to travel all through Egypt, you know, at least up through like Lebanon and bring them all back together. And she she then she uses magic to sew them back together to create no Cyrus's the first time. So he's his body parts are brought back together. And this part's a little weird, she, she also creates a magic penis for him and they have sex. And that's how she actually has her child, her properties who then goes, goes back and fight Seth and wins. But that that process of going around the world, as a mourner, and collecting all these body parts, and bringing them back together, is really, I think that's really emotionally quite resonant, the sense of, of mourning, and of being sort of an itinerant Nomad and having no home as you accomplish this task. That That to me, so the life of an academic that I'm sure the life of a theatre artist is not terribly different. It's very itinerant, you move all the time. It's very difficult to build community because you're constantly like moving for work. And it's very sad. And it's very hard. And that's been something that has been one of the more difficult challenges of my life has been this itinerancy. And so that part I really resonates with me. It was interesting, too, because that also was clearly the part that resonate with people antiquity as well, because one of the two main festivals, they had, people would reenact this, they would crawl around into the dark, looking for the parts of Osiris, his body within the temple, and then bring them back together and celebrate His resurrection.
Unknown Speaker 41:18
That is truly just profound. Yeah, because I definitely can relate to this transient moving and, and in a way, she's archiving, she is preserving, you know, she is making history in that way. Which is what is so it just feels like so part of the journey of life. And right now, I feel it more resonantly of like, Oh, I want to bring the people together, I want to take these different parts. We think there's, you know, scholarship, and then there's, there's theater, and then there's this, this digital thing over here. And then there's this thing that's happening right now. But they're all part of the same body, you know, so, yeah, I really feel that,
Unknown Speaker 42:12
that the other thing that also inspired me about that story, too, is, um, you know, in particularly Greek versions, they move that narrative out of Egypt to the entire like, world. So ISIS goes literally all over the world, to bring her bring him back together. And then she acquires all these names. This creates this like, universal global goddess that like unifies all Wow. So that part gets beautiful. That's one of the nice parts of the appropriate.
Unknown Speaker 42:36
Wow. And this like, when I think about like family leadership, and the US actually reading a Toni Morrison essay earlier today, and she was talking about Yes, go into the world with ambition, but also understanding that you're nurturing sensibilities, and she was specifically speaking about feminine leadership. She was the name of the essay or the speech is called Cinderella's stepsisters. And she's talking about, you know, the, the types of violence that women do to one another, and how to not do that, and why why you should not do that. And I've been thinking a lot about the role of nurturer and caregiver in social change, and what, what does that look like? And I don't know, I think I have some personal like, Oh, you know, I don't want to be, you know, why do we always have to, if your family you have to be taking care of somebody and nurturing them and I don't want to, but then to hear this story of ISIS and it being like, such a fundamental part of leadership, such a fundamental part of bringing continents worlds together, is that love? Is that community nurturing community nurturing bonds, so
Unknown Speaker 43:58
it's so
Unknown Speaker 43:59
this beautiful thing, beautiful.
Unknown Speaker 44:02
That's really beautiful.
Unknown Speaker 44:03
It's so important. Thank you. Okay, so, you know, I think we're kind of rounding it out. Is there a verado besides ISIS, who you would want to hang out with from from history, where you just want to like kick it with,
Unknown Speaker 44:20
grab, grab,
Unknown Speaker 44:21
grab a cup of tea, or I don't know something stronger with?
Unknown Speaker 44:26
I feel like there are so many, and that I think, is it is a testament to the amount of work that women have had to do in history. Um, to, to to be it really be, um, and I'm already getting to have you know, coffee with one famous raga right now, so that's great.
Unknown Speaker 44:48
Um,
Unknown Speaker 44:48
you're amazing.
Unknown Speaker 44:50
You know, it's interesting because I so I live in Indiana now and I live just about an hour and a half from Terre Haute, which is the federal prison that does Federal executions.
Unknown Speaker 45:01
Oh, right.
Unknown Speaker 45:03
This is not a thing I knew until I moved here. I assume they happen in Texas or something, but they happen in Indiana. And so one of the people I've been most inspired by lately has actually been sister, Helen Prashant, who's been really devoted her entire life to battling the death penalty across the country and to really pushing for not all, you know, bigger scale change in terms of, you know, banning the death penalty, but also every single time that somebody comes up for the death penalty, she's there, she pushes, she pushes hard. And she's really, you know, thrown her whole life behind that. And so, I think that's really an incredible thing to do. And I think she's an incredible person. And I'd like to hang out with her sometime, you know, but I think she's real busy,
Unknown Speaker 45:46
unfortunate, I know, she's got a lot of work to do. And she's up against a big a big thing. So, yeah, more power to her. And there's something about this, like, Ernest, I'm just gonna step by step, chip away at this thing. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stand here and hold witness and be be a stone in the river. You know what I mean? This, this is, this is what I'm going to do. And I would love to ask her, like, what sustains you, you know, what, what is the? What is the thing inside you that says, stay, you know, and, and bear witness to this and speak, you know, thank you. That's dope. I'm gonna look more into it more into her because I because there's also so much happening right now. There's so many fronts of urgency. Right now in the world. It's, it's been really incredible to see different different femme leaders step up, you know what I mean, in the face of pandemic protest the whole nine. So, Tally for that and God. So I'd like to thank you, Dr. mazurek, for joining generously. Joining me in conversation today, going from emails to hear we are on these these two platforms, we're simultaneously on two things, working together to be a part of creating this narrative of the future. And so I am so grateful for for your presence here. This this move this morning. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 47:27
Thank you so much. This is such a great project. I'm really honored that you you asked to speak to me.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
Thank you to everyone for listening to another episode of vanguard of the Viragoes with Chelsea at this conversation and more resources will be on the audio podcast and website. This is a whole world y'all. So visit us and check it out. And always remember, we are all on the vanguard of changing time, be the difference. lead with love.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai