This week’s virago is the head-busting noblewoman, Banu Goshasp. You’ve never met a bride like this before. A fighter, a hunter, and a Persian epic hero who is not excited about marriage - at all. Then, dig into the past with the adventurous archaeologist, Dr. Maggie Beeler. *TRIGGER WARNING* This episode contains sounds of war. You may hear rapid gunfire, weeping, explosions, intense gore, general violence, men crying, whips, screaming, babies crying, blood gushing, and/ or sirens.
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SHOW INFO
This podcast was created and hosted by ChelseaDee
This podcast was executive produced by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams.
This episode features the vocal performances by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams
Our theme song, “Crown On”, was created by Niambi Ra and Le’Asha
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Host 0:03
you ain't never seen a bride like this before. gallons surly and head busted. You see Bhanu gosh asked was a warrior, a hunter meant to be out on adventures with her younger brother, saving the kingdom and slaying demons. Not getting married, being a wife. But her combination of bravery and beauty through men into distress. She could fight and she looked like that bond or gosh offs. Ancient Iranian hero is one of the few women to have an entire Persian epic dedicated to her exploits are just a few moments in the life of this badass down
there should it come to you. Watch and learn little brother. Sister how to do that. So skillfully, barely moved.
Unknown Speaker 2:26
Far of Mars little brother hunting is in our blood. One day you finally tap into you in steaks.
Host 2:44
In one day, he did. her little brother became a great hunter and fighter. Thanks to his big sisters training.
Their father explicitly forbade them to journey outside their territory. But their teenage heroes so they went ahead anyways. On their way home. They came upon a stranger on the road. You will go no further. Who will tell us where we can and cannot go? Some old man in the middle of the road. Move aside beggar.
Unknown Speaker 3:35
Oh, teach you a lesson about insulting your elders young man.
Host 3:45
You are no match for me old man. I will teach you humility now. How do you like this lesson?
Unknown Speaker 4:00
Daughter daddy
Unknown Speaker 4:03
killed me. I can see your sword skills are developing quite nicely shibo more.
Host 4:16
She nearly killed her father in a sword fight. I heard having teenage daughters was hard but goodness gracious. Get this girl on the battlefield quickly. And that's exactly what her father did. How she loved it.
Unknown Speaker 4:39
It's so beautiful out here. I love the smell of battle in the morning.
Host 4:48
One day after killing her opponent, Banu removed her helmet, you know it gets stuffy and all that armor. All of her hair tumbled out of that helmet. And into the breeze fluttering in the wind.
Unknown Speaker 5:09
Random soldier from the opposing side, saw the glorious side of Manu taking her helmet off. he devised a plan.
Unknown Speaker 5:23
Go to her, tell her she's my woman and take her home with me to be my wife. Child, let's see where this goes. Hey, you, woman, you are very beautiful. Come with me and be my wife.
Host 5:48
Who tells me what I must do. I do. I am your husband now. Woman. He made a fatal mistake. He reached for her arm, intending to grab her and pull her along.
She cut that man clean into the long way. Of course. That episode drew worldwide attention and next thing she knew three princes from India we're riding into town to compete for her hand in marriage. The final score, one Prince did one Prince lethally wounded, and the last Prince. He ran as far as he could from that wild buy new gosh house. To her father. There was only one issue with Banu consistently beating, maiming and sometimes killing her suitors. Who was she going to marry? Her father was concerned but he devised a little game to choose his daughter's husband. At a heroes banquet, over 400 of the kingdoms and best fighters gathered to celebrate a recent victory. Somehow the topic of conversation turned to Banu
Unknown Speaker 7:27
Have you seen Russell's daughter on the battlefield? The sward strikes with such precision? I saw her take down a man three times her size one time her bravery knows no limits
Host 7:39
and her hair feel seen her take her helmet off all that air flowing in the breeze. Those dirty and then the Warriors began to drunkenly sing in praise of bond news, beauty and bravery. Her father Rustom had heard enough. He put all the fighters on a carpet and then pulled the rug out from under them. Only one man remained balanced and standing. He passed the test. He would be Bannu. Gosh gasps husband. The wedding was announced.
You've gone and done what? I who have fought by your side who has bested you? You have left me no choice but to marry this. This even is this man.
Unknown Speaker 8:41
It's time you marry. To be a wife and mother is the highest honor for a woman.
Host 8:55
The wedding was one thing but the wedding night. Now that was another
Unknown Speaker 9:06
come my bride. It is time for me to have my husband me way with you.
Host 9:14
Do you think you will rule me now?
Unknown Speaker 9:18
Okay, yes, silly woman. I am your ruler. I am your husband.
Unknown Speaker 9:27
And he grabbed for her arm to force her. Whoa, move. All
Host 9:39
staying in that corner and shut up. Your incessant crying disturbs my sleep. You will stay that way until you come to your senses husband.
Unknown Speaker 9:53
And that was how her husband spent his wedding night. Bound gag and held hostage until dawn.
Unknown Speaker 10:03
But he learned a very important lesson about being married to manage a lesson about marriage itself. Perhaps
Unknown Speaker 10:16
it is an honor to be your husband. Your presence allows me to behold greatness and victory. You, great fighter. Please untie me. And let me restore my honor. In your eyes.
Host 10:37
No one tells me what I can and cannot do. Not even you husband. If I tell you once I tell you twice, talk to her nice, leave all that aggressive stuff on the battlefield. approach with humility, because arrogance gets you nothing except cleaved into to the long way. Manu and her husband had son, a strong child who grew to become a strong hero, thanks to his mother's training.
Since the beginning, that women are always speaking the system didn't want to give us rights. But we kept on override go with an mo go hand in the business of brave people, gals, guys and everybody in between. How are you doing? Have you checked in with your heart? Welcome to another episode of vanguard of the Viragoes where we revisit the heroines of human history. In order to learn from this hidden archive of treasures. I'm your hostess with the most desk Chelsea D. I'm currently in Washington, DC and I want to uplift that I'm on the ancestral lands of the necochea tank and causton and muscats. piscataway peoples, though I do not know their names, I want to uplift the hands and lives that have made art that has lasted through the centuries and is still with us today. I thank you for your contribution to human history, you are not forgotten. As a slight accessibility check in you might hear some sirens in the background. Just so you know, we are in the midst of a raging pandemic. So in case you hear that, that's what that is. This is the portion of the show where I chat with a very special guest. I just like to tell stories. I'm a creative who is addicted to diverse representation and storytelling. For the stories we tell most of the people we become, I think, but my guests on this show are folks who are actively studying preserving and making history. Yes, making history. These are the real heroes in my opinion. And today's hero is Dr. Maggie beeler. Welcome aboard. Thank you for joining me, how are you doing?
Unknown Speaker 13:22
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. It's I'm blushing at that intro. It's awesome. I hope to live up to Bobby. It's how are you doing?
Host 13:33
I am doing I'm doing really well. And it's always a good day for me when I get to what I just get to talk to historians and researchers who are doing such amazing work that is so inspiring. I walk away from these conversations totally infused with energy, which is something that has not been happening on a lot of zoom calls. So this is very, this is very dope to me. I'm very glad to be here. I am as well. Alright, so let's jump right in. Can you share with us your area of expertise, you know what era the study were? And what drew you What drew you to this?
Unknown Speaker 14:16
Sure. Everybody loves to talk about themselves, right? So I am currently teaching at Temple University here in Philadelphia. And I do want to acknowledge that I'm both living and working on the ancestral lands of the Lennie lead North Bay people. And I teach in the Greek and Roman classics department, which is the study of ancient Greece and Rome. And I'm trained as a field archaeologist. So I approach it from the perspective of looking at physical things that aren't in the architecture and archaeological artifacts. And I got my PhD just outside of Philly here in classical and Near Eastern archaeology from Britain. College. So I actually, most of my research research is looking at the intersection or intercultural exchanges context among people in the ancient Mediterranean. And I've excavated as a field archaeologist primarily in Greece, but also in the United Arab Emirates, outside of Dubai. And so I'm really interested in looking at specifically, as you know, the name of my degree kind of implies, the interactions among what we now call east and west, and kind of interrogating those categories is that really useful way to look at how ancient societies were interacting, so. And my research and teaching, I guess, I would say that they focus on social identity is kind of the easiest way to say it, but specifically social difference and how those were negotiated. And obviously, because I'm an archaeologist in the past, and with physical things, how how art and things like that were used, so that we can kind of interact with each other beyond just exchanges. So not looking at trading necessarily as just an economic practice, but also a community building practice and something that is implicated in identity formation and structuring relations among people. So that stuff really excites me. I really like things. I'm a Material Girl, I suppose.
Host 16:24
I mean, oh, I told you, I told you this that I asked the first question. And then these things they wander, wander into the wilderness of imagination, but I am just, I got an okay. excavating. excavating is a word that I use, you know, as a theatre maker. I'm always like, on excavating the, you know, the stories of X, Y, and Z. But like, you are literally doing excavations. I mean, can you can you talk about like, what is it like at a dig site? What is it? What is it like to? I don't even know, what are you doing? Are you getting your hands in the dirt? I've only seen movies? Like, I don't know what it's really like out there, you know?
Unknown Speaker 17:12
Yeah, it's definitely not Indiana Jones, I don't get to punch any Nazis, unfortunately. And it's really, it's not what attracted me to archaeology. I will say that at the outset, I actually hadn't been on an excavation when I got into the Ph. D. program, because I was working a lot. And I didn't have time to take off, you know, a month and a half to go dig in the field. So I didn't know what to expect. When I got there. I knew what I wanted the end goal to be I knew we're supposed to find stuff, right. But one thing that I wasn't prepared for is how incredibly unglamorous It is, it is really, really hard, physical strenuous work in really challenging physical conditions. I mean, you did, first of all, it's really hot. Let me just start. Because you did, you did during the summers, when professors and field school students have time and in the Mediterranean, at least in Greece, and in Italy, that is the hottest time of year. So you're digging, it's, you know, 90 degrees, so you want to wake up really early, you start excavating at six, or seven, if you can, and then you finish by one, or 2pm is when you want to wrap up, because the heat of the day, just gets so incredibly bad that time. So actually, when I was in the UAE, in the Emirates, the field season was in December, and it was still in the 80s and 90s, during there. So just to give you a sense of that. So first of all, it's hot, obviously, it's dirty. It's dirty, but I like that part. But it's also it's kind of like really physical work. So you're swinging big picks, you're shoveling dirt, you're putting it in wheelbarrows, and you're moving that or you're putting it in big baskets, and you move it out of the way you take it every bucket full, you put it through a sieve, like a mesh sieve, and you have to shake that which is hard because you have all the dirt on it to try to see if you can find any little small phones like coins or something like that. And so that's all very physical work that you're doing. And then also, you know, you're bent over you're squatting. So you kind of have to be prepared for physically what you're going to do, but then also add to that the challenge if you're not, you know a field school student or work man, if you are an area supervisor, which you kind of work your way up to, that was mostly what I was doing was recording, documenting and recording everything that happens. So I'm I'm not leaving my students workmen to work for themselves. So in addition to shoveling and moving buckets and etc, etc. I also have to be writing down every single thing that happens measuring every single thing, photographing, drawing every single little shooting things in with the GPS so that you know exactly where it is on the grid. And that's because every time you Dig, every time you excavate it sexually, you're destroying the context. archaeology is destruction, which is weird, right? Because you're constructing these historical narratives with it. But it's your job to make sure you document everything that happens. So that in case you miss something, in case, I don't know that the shell is sticking out of, you know, the side of the trench in a certain way, because it means on the next trench, I'm going to find something. But you know, whatever I record in my notebook as an area supervisor, then the director of the excavation, that's what he or she makes into the final site report to present to, you know, the world. So because it's science, and we don't own anything, when we go in there. It's It all belongs to the country in which you are excavating. And so you have to give a report to them. And you want to make sure that you've done right, by science by humankind, and especially by your hosts, right. So that part when it's really, really hot, and you're like, Okay, the soil here, I think it's slightly red, you got like, sweat dripping. So it's, it's a lot harder than it looks. But I will say, I've, it's kind of like a team sport, too, because you're all on the team of science. You all have a common goal. And I'll tell you, I think that archaeologists are a special type of academic because we have this physical component. But also, it's this really unique social experience, because you get to know somebody, your friends and colleagues and your professors really, really, really well, when you share a bathroom for six weeks.
Host 21:42
Building Community.
Unknown Speaker 21:43
Yes. So I mean, I think it's great. I love it, I miss it. But I don't want to act like it's it's all fun and games. It's really, really, really hard work. And that actually is what makes it so rewarding, I think, because you're really doing something. Yeah,
Host 21:59
I mean, do you remember like the first object you ever found? The verse first first? Yeah, you know,
Unknown Speaker 22:08
I'll tell you my first and my best. And then I'll tell you the most important thing I've ever found because they're wildly different. So the first thing I ever found actually wound up being from the time period that I wrote my dissertation on so I specialize in the early Bronze Age, which was 5000 years ago, when it was before writing before literacy before even, you know, monumental architecture and stuff. It was all very small scale. And my dissertation adviser, Jim Wright, who I left New York to come to Bryn Mawr to work with him, because he has it. I adore him. He has such a unique outlook on everything. And he also had an excavation at the time that had a really important early bronze age level. Now, I didn't know I was going to become obsessed with the early Bronze Age. But this is one of my favorite memories. Because the first thing I ever picked up that was ancient that I was allowed to touch, like, on the ground, like they let me touch it was turned out to be I said, Jim, what is this? And he said, Oh, you know, it's 530 or something in the morning, we're up there waiting for the workman to come. And he said, Oh, that's cool. We found that that's actually what we call an archaeology diagnostic. Which means that the shape of just this pottery fragment, because of the way we could tell it was part of this particular type of cup. That's really distinctive, and was only made during that really fun. There's like oh, that's really cool. We found a sauceboat shirt. Good for you. So that's the first thing I ever found. Wow, I know the coolest thing I ever found. I found 100 Roman coins at the Roman port of lucky Oh, near Corinth, which was fun, but it had nothing on the gold and Pearl, I think it was earring or maybe a fingering is kind of smashed up piece of jewelry, that was found in a get this Crusader era. So 13th century CE II, burial inside of a Byzantine church at Corinth, which is really cool. But that's got nothing on the most important. Okay. I'm so proud of this is the one that I hooked my students with. It was a gem in a middle Bronze Age cemetery on the island of Crete, which is really cool because it's in between Egypt and mainland Greece. And so a lot of cool stuff happens and creative popping. And it really was especially in the Bronze Age. And so this gemstone is not only made of karelian, which is imported from the Indus Valley, like 4000 years ago already, they're in contact on this tight on this island. It's not tiny. It's huge. But it's also inscribed with an undeciphered language called creating hieroglyphic Whoa. So you can't really talk that.
Host 25:03
That's okay. Well, now I got to know more about like, Dino the interaction you mentioned a little bit earlier, you know, how you're what you're interested in is how ancient societies interacted and in Crete is just a fabulous example of where we're seeing the these cultures intersect. And I mean, what have you? And this is a big question. I don't know how to pare it down, but like, what insights Have you gleaned about how cultures interact? You know, like, do we do it through? Is it through our stuff in our art in our media? Or is it fashion or food? Yeah. How do people? Is it like we see today, you know, transportation, and, you know, what do you what are your thoughts on that?
Unknown Speaker 25:55
Yeah, it kind of, it's both. It is a lot like today, actually. But it's also we're talking about, you know, pre monetary economies, right? We're talking about, at least in the time period that I wrote my dissertation on, it's pre literate. And even when you are into the later Bronze Age, when we actually can decipher the scripts, they don't, you know, they're not stories, they're not narratives or epic poetry. It's like, Maggie sent three sheep to the palace, but not to the palace, they say to the Goddess, right? Because it's, you're not sending it to the king who's exploiting you. You're sending it for safekeeping for the Goddess, right? So, yeah, but it is a huge question that you're asking, which is about, you know, how does material culture I just threw that out there. Like, it's a given the fact that Yeah, associate our identities through stuff now, from my perspective as an archaeologist, and I think we do. But let me defend that. I'll give you an example. So it's, it's not just skin deep. It's not just I carry this designer handbags. So you know what class I belong to. That's kind of a modern example of it. And that is happening in antiquity. But it goes deeper than that. So we like, literally negotiate our relationships with people consider, for instance, the gift, you give a gift to somebody to build and maintain your friendship and your goodwill, or even with somebody in your family. And even if it's not a big or expensive gift, it's the meaning of it, and you personalize it when you wrap it. So this is like one example of how objects kind of mediate our relationships. But the way that archaeologically, I've been approaching it in the context of intercultural contact, is, I'll use the example in my dissertation, what my dissertation does, all scholars are like in my dissertation, let me see if I can make this quick and impactful. So in my dissertation, I look at this one data set, and they're called seals, or stamps. And if you think of like, medieval kings, how they had the gold signet ring, and they would stamp the envelope with red wax, and that would see on, this belongs to the king, or it makes it official like this is a message from the king. So the first ones of those in Greece, pop up in the early Bronze Age, the time period that I study, and that technology of stamping stuff has been already used for 1000s of years in Mesopotamia in the Near East already by kings. But what's weird is that even though these communities in the early Bronze Age, Greece, they're getting all of this stuff. They're getting new materials and new ideas and new technologies such as sealing, which is really a revolution. I call it a record breaking technology. Because what they're doing is they're stamping lumps of clay that they've put on containers, boxes, or ceramic vessels are great storage containers. And they're stamping it and that had previously been before I took a crack at it been interpreted as kind of the way the king is using a signet ring. This belongs to the person who's storing them. But what I found digging deeper, I brought together all of the seals for the first time, all across mainland Greece. And I noticed that not only are they always being used in the context of food storage and feasting, but we don't have any evidence for kings or chiefdoms or elites. And that's how we've always interpreted as interpreted the early Bronze Age. Using this data set. There's really important data set that I looked at seals. So these little objects, they have designs engraved on them, and they're all slightly different, but they look pretty much the same. They're all slightly slightly different. But it seems like there's really a concerted effort to make them look like one group, one homogenous group. And what's super interesting, at least in the best preserved archaeological context that we have for them at this site called Lerner in southern In Greece in the argolic, and it's near my sini, where the late Bronze Age mycenaeans, you know, the stuff of Homer, Achilles and Agamemnon and stuff.
Unknown Speaker 30:08
At the side, that learner, what we see is, rather than one person stamping all of the vessels that are being stored in this area, and we know they're being stored there for communal feasting, because they're found together in a room with all of these vessels, and food remains, you know, plant seeds, stuff like that. What's really cool, though, is that the number of individual seals is exactly the same or corresponds roughly, I think that's a couple off to the number of vessels, bowls, or cups that are being stored in that room. Which means where I interpreted it is that people each have their own seal. And they're each stamping their contributions to a feast to a communal feast. And so the reason that that's important is that whereas previously people had said, Oh, this is this is evidence for complex society, civilization with a big sea. And it's being imported from Mesopotamia, you know, isn't that cool? And I said, Well, wait a minute, let's look at how they're actually doing it. And what's notably absent is one person controlling all of it, because seals are a control device in Mesopotamia. So what's more interesting to me is that these seals, the designs on them are a group emblem, right? And that group emblem is being displayed in the context of communal feasting. Talk about community building, that's every time you're building bonds with people, right. And so I think food counts also, by the way, as material culture. artifacts are things you make, but eco facts and archaeology are things like animal bones and plant remains, and they tell you about diet. And, and that's a it's a human material interaction. But I think that I'm getting back to this idea of how these materials, how art specifically, is negotiating our social identities and why that's relevant to intercultural contact, these small scale communities in the early Bronze Age, they're importing the sophisticated technology selectively. They're not bringing in the whole social hierarchy. They're not like in bring your king with us, we're going to start doing things your way. And so what we're actually seeing at the start of the story of ancient Greece with like, maybe you've heard of it, at the start of the story and things know, Europeans civilization, you don't see exploitation by elites. You see common people, you see commoners cooperating. And it's just a sophisticated and it is complex society. And it is civilization. And it's done in a way where collectively as a group, they're managing it, instead of having one person come in and do it. So it's just it's a way that reframes also, the whole way we tell the story, which, which is like what you do, right?
Host 32:53
Absolutely. I mean, it's so I've spoken with other guests on the show who reference how, how to know just how our understanding of the class the classics, and civilization with a big fee is somehow you is sometimes used to condone exploitation and to, to solidify a certain way of moving through the world. And so it's so fascinating to me when I meet people who are like, but actually at the origin point of the thing that you're using to condone exploitation, there actually wasn't any exploitation. It's something that like, again, I go back to this idea of receipts, you know, where we're where we've got the receipts of, of these, these legacies of these histories.
Unknown Speaker 33:42
Well, that's what I love. When you say receipts, because these are literally receipts, these stamped pieces of clay, literally receipts. But also, getting back to that this idea of people who are misusing or abusing the classics. I won't say misusing, because actually, the classics has a long history. And this is something I've lectured on and written on. And this is the way that I teach. at Temple I teach a class every semester called race in the ancient Mediterranean. And the way that I teach it, yeah, the way that I teach it is by talking about these white nationalist terrorists, such as the ones that we just saw at the Capitol, who, you know, one of them was wearing an ancient Greek helmet. Like why? And so that's the question I asked my students is wire, why are white supremacists so invested in ancient Greece and Rome and what are we not doing to stop it? As classicist and archaeologists, you know, our, our discipline is being implicated in these unscientific illogical and hateful ideologies. And so what can we do to kind of combat that and to make not just classics, but also archaeology and honestly, academia, the ivory tower, how do we make it just a little bit less ivory, you know, Mm hmm.
Host 35:02
I mean, that actually leads to another question I have, which is like, what's a common myth or or preconception about your area of study that you that you'd like to dispel? You know about how
Unknown Speaker 35:18
it's so easy. If you talk to any person who's been in my classroom at all, it wasn't aliens. And it's actually kind of racist to think that aliens are the only ones who could have built the pyramids when we're talking about Africa. Come on, guys. To me, yeah, just because white people didn't do it doesn't mean it's not civilization with a big sea. And it definitely doesn't mean that it wasn't that it was aliens. It was not aliens. I'm not saying there aren't aliens. I'm just saying that they didn't build the pyramids. That's all. Like, that's my main thing. And I feel passionately about it.
Host 35:54
I love it. I love this. Just like, let me just clear this up. Let me just get this up. Which is very helpful, though, because it is a part it is a notion. Was there a whole show called like ancient aliens?
Unknown Speaker 36:05
Oh my god, that guy. I swear in alien enthusiast is too credible. A title for that guy. mean,
Host 36:14
it is definitely something that I think makes the rounds and a lot of, you know, mainstream media I've seen on my Facebook Timeline occasionally like, Okay, great. So I'm glad you heard it here, folks. You heard it here. So what are some of you talked about archaeology as destruction or there being an element of destruction inherent in doing these, these deeds, and I was speaking with another guest who was talking about her role as a conservationist and and trying to figure out a new way to do this more respectfully, you know, how to how to take objects or bodies, I think about mummies I think about, you know, how burial sites, you know, has been, because one of the places where I used to go the met in New York City was like, No, you go to the, the Dushan wing, and you see all these beautiful things, which really sparked your imagination and are necessary to build curiosity, but like, how do we do it in a, I saw, I saw somewhere in your work, the term new approaches to cultural heritage preservation, right, which I think is just awesome. Like, it's just like, I feel like sums up basically what I'm what I'm saying. But like, what is your insight into how that could happen? or?
Unknown Speaker 37:44
Yeah, that's, I'm so glad that you're speaking to a conservationist too. I'm not a conservationist. But I did co organize a Research Symposium at the Penn Museum here in Philadelphia, which is just right up the street from me, called, what was it from amphipolis to Mazal, new approaches to cultural heritage preservation. And so what we did is, we invited a really dynamic group, actually, of what we called Emerging Scholars, so underrepresented, let's say, and younger scholars, who are doing new groundbreaking work, and that includes methodological and theoretical new approaches. And what I mean by that is different technologies. So it's like 3d scanning and photogrammetry, I mean, that you can really democratize archaeology, in the study, especially of art, if you can 3d print, and disseminate these artifacts, so that you can actually get a sense of what they are, if you can, you know, have a 3d print thing and have the physical objects, then you don't have to necessarily buy a plane ticket fly to Greece. Right? And of course, nothing will ever compare to actually studying the real thing. But in this sense of how do we make archaeology more accessible and inclusive? How do you engage with people? It's these kinds of ways of doing things. And that includes, as I said, also, theoretical approaches, which, you know, I think of post colonialism or decolonized, archaeology, these are just ways of interrogating the kind of power structure of the way we do archaeology, because archaeology is actually very colonial. If you think about it, I'm American, I fly over to Greece, and I say, I've arrived, I'm the expert. Let me step into this excavation and dig up your past remains for you. And then I'll tell you Greek people what it means. Right? I've excavated graves before, you know, so there's a there's a big responsibility that comes with all of that. And so it's you have these new, really cool approaches to archaeology now that I can't say I belong, I'm not part of them. And so that's why I was organizing the symposium to kind of give a venue for people who are doing this really important work. People. I mean, 3d scanning is not even digital humanities is, is really taking off. And I think it's really important. And especially now that we're all you know, it's a, it's the plague. And we're, and we're doing everything with zoom. I think it's even more important now than ever. And you have things like just I think this month, I think in January, yeah, the Athenian Acropolis Museum, you can now tour its galleries virtually. And so you don't have to buy a plane ticket. Yes, yes, ma'am. And you don't have to buy a plane ticket now, to go see that stuff or you don't have to rely on you don't have to pay tuition for a class for someone to teach it to you. Right. So I think that there are all of these cool ways with cultural heritage preservation, and I should probably define what that means really quickly. Oops, my bad. Cultural Heritage is it's such a broad term, but it's it's, it's basically, heritage is is your roots. And so when you're talking about cultural heritage, you have some people who are of the minds that all human history belongs to all of us. And these are the people who are fine with the Parthenon marbles remaining in the British Museum, even though Greece has constructed and the entire Acropolis Museum, right next to where are these architectural reliefs? They were not portable, they were hacked right off the building, right? When the Ottoman Empire was occupying Greece, so the Greeks didn't even have a say, in the dissemination of their cultural heritage. And so preservation of things that belong to certain cultures is, you know, putting them in a museum certainly preserves them, but also, you're displaying it then only to the people who can afford to go to England, right? And that's not everyone the Met is my happy place, trust me. But can the Mets tell the story of ancient Egyptians without putting somebodies ancestors bodies on display? Do we need to see the mummies Really? You know, so these are, these are the big questions, and I legit have no answers about cultural heritage. But that's actually why I will say, Wait, I need to circle back. One of the things that attracted me to archaeology is that I realized, because our data set is necessarily incomplete, that not everything is preserved through time things degrade and break down. So because we don't, we can't say the answer is B. So we're judged more really on the quality of our questions. And I think that's such a fascinating place to hang out.
Unknown Speaker 42:35
It's very, like humanities, right? But so it's these, it's these big questions that archaeology gets to ask of the past. And the way that we asked them is 100% informed by the present. And so you have to constantly have new approaches, there should be a new approaches volume every year. Because there are new ways to think about things. It's not just technology, it's also you have a person whose brain sees things differently because of their lived human experience. And so centering people is something archeology does. It's not actually about the things that we're preserving. we're preserving cultural heritage. we're preserving the story of human history. Whether you subscribe to the idea that all history is human history, or whether you're a little bit more careful, like Mark, most archaeologists are was saying, actually, that belongs to the Greek people.
Host 43:33
I mean, what? That's such a such a such an awesome, it's such an awesome way of looking. Looking at the past, I mean, for you making what questions are you asking of the past?
Unknown Speaker 43:48
Oh, yeah. Yeah, what's always on your go? Yeah. What haunts me a lot. I did grades I told you. Well, yeah. Well, this is such a good question. And you could ask of anybody. I think it's really great. I would say that the kind of my North Star this entire time, and it's because, personally, professionally, politically, all of that. I'm about diversity, equity and inclusion. And I've always sought out, you know, jobs that are doing that I worked for open access repositories to make scholarly work spree freely available. I worked in accessibility to make Yes, it's really important and it is happening but it's slow going. I'm working, you know, converting course materials for disabled students. Even before I started academia, I was a legal secretary on wall street for a women's rights employment discrimination firm. So I'm all about the human experience is liberation. And so the way that that I really did not think that that would factor into archaeology in any way. I thought I was escaping the world. Going into To the past and being able to go, Okay, nevermind, goodbye. And just focusing on the past. But again, what I've what I've learned studying archaeology is you can't, you can never there's no such thing as a neutral observer. There's no such thing as unbiased science, their history, the word history comes from the ancient Greek historia, which means inquiry or question. So you always approach something with a question. You're always looking for something. And even when you're digging, you excavate very carefully and you you record everything you find, because you don't know what's going to be relevant. But at the same time, you're there going, what time period is this? What were these people eating? What were they doing? And so the way that inclusion and diversity had influenced my research, I already explained my dissertation thesis, where I'm looking at, I use collective action theory, to kind of conceptualize civilization with the Big C and social complexity beyond hierarchy, we can have non hierarchical complexity and civilizations, we can have more egalitarian kinds of human social groups. And so I think that that has to do a lot with my own background. Classical archaeology especially is a it's money, it's it's the oldest field, right? ivory tower, and it's very much money field. And I honestly, when I applied for I worked so hard to get into the Ph. D. program, but I honestly didn't think it was gonna happen. It was kind of this like pipe dream, because who gets to do this? Who gets to do what I do? Right? Right. So but I was, I had some dissonance really, with my colleagues in this field, because they're from a different socio economic background than I am. And so I kind of not the previous administration, the way that things were, I was kind of the questions I started wanting to ask if the material were relevant then And today, I was kind of like, why are we like this? Why can't we how, why does everything we everything we talk about is about violence and domination and exploitation, can we tell a story that isn't about competing exploitative elites, because that's what history is the way we tell it? It's this king did this and he smoked this person, he slaughtered this guy. And these great men histories are just, here's this dude, here's this dude, here's this dude. And I was thinking, is there a way that we can access common people in this time period, specifically, that fascinates me? Because it's such an important, it's the start of the story of ancient Greece. And I think we're telling it wrong. So what happens is I try to find normal people. And my, you know, big main argument is that common people, regular people are actually the main engine of human history and of social change. And we actually, we tell a story of who compete competition. But actually, cooperation is what characterizes, if there is any universal human experience, its cooperation. We survived the Ice Age by cooperating. We survived modern day society, because we agree to drive on a certain side of the street. Right? That's cooperation. And so I think the way that we're telling this story is just like what you're doing with this podcast, which is why it's such a delight to be here, because you're doing what I'm doing with a different media, right in a different context, but it's the same goal.
Host 48:31
Yeah. Wow. That's so you know, y'all really get me sometimes. And I never bring tissues with me. Always really inconvenient. Because it's really a gorgeous. Oh, wow. So let's dig in. That's what it is. It's not just luck. It's hard work. And it's, it's so worth it. So let's talk about Morocco's if were you familiar with bond Oh gosh, ask before I bailed you out of nowhere.
Unknown Speaker 49:15
I'm so glad you did, too. I you know, it's always great to learn something from people and I thought, Oh, man, I have to look this up. And I'm really embarrassed. But no, I don't know this ancient. I listened with great interest. I really, I just want to say really quickly. I loved the way that you brought her story to life because that's what you're doing by translating it into this medium. And it's it's not just like the quality of the production everything. It's it's the way you tell the story too. And like I said, that's what I'm doing. You are archaeologists historians tell stories, but I love the way you brought her to life. And so I listened before I looked her up, and I'm glad I did. Because I feel like I got a lot more out of the way that you told us.
Host 50:00
Wow, that's crazy. Let me so how to I mean, what did you use? What did you think of her story? Like what? This like, the head busting bra? And you know, is this is this just common this depiction of women in this is, I don't know, region area time or you know, how did you feel about the?
Unknown Speaker 50:25
Yeah, this character? Yeah, I was obviously fascinated by her and I have to start by just full ignorance of the time period. I know, of course, if it's before Jesus, I kind of know and I really know the further back in time away from Jesus you get. So this is really fascinating though and I have Persian friends who every time they tell me anything about their culture I am just floored for Farsi is such a beautiful language, Persian culture is so beautiful, and it has such deep roots. And in fact, some of my colleagues who work on Mesopotamia point to Elam, which is ancient Iran as the source of most of the things that we think of Big C, civilization, literacy, monumental architecture, blah, blah, it was happening also in Iran. But you know, we're archaeologists working in Iran at the time that these narratives were being written, have they been able to work there since the revolution in the 70s? That really impacts you know, who tells the story? God, I can't get away from the story like sorry. And when did they collect the data? And you know what, that's just it with what I liked the way that you told her story, because it's a check for scholars like me who study the past, that these are real people with fully fledged lives, they had tragedy they had lost, they were badass, they, you know, they, they messed up sometimes desires. Yeah, fully all of that, that are not always available to us, archaeologically that we can't always access them, it's important to remember that we're talking about people. And these aren't just data points for us to construct an argument so that we can get publications so that we can get tenure, these are people and so I really, it was nice for me because it was kind of a reality check where I realized that that's, that's the people the human experience. That's what drew me to archaeology. And I think that I actually prefer to see it from modern day perspectives and have modern day translations then then to the scholarly process, but I also want authority when I'm talking about it. So I went ahead and did the PhD thing.
Host 52:43
Well, is there a Is there like a Virago from history who you'd want to hang out with?
Unknown Speaker 52:50
You're going to think I'm so lame. Because this is such an obvious answer for an archaeologist but Hatshepsut.
Host 53:00
It was, yeah, tell me more. Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 53:02
you've heard her though she's the most people have. She's the female Pharaoh in ancient Egypt. So most people know who she is. And that's why I'm a little embarrassed. And I don't honestly I don't even know what I would ask her. But the reason that I feel like I have to be around and want to be around her so much is because we don't know who she is getting back to the way that her story is told, because she was a woman. And that is not what Pharaohs were right. She was this. She broke the mold. And her successors were ashamed of the fact that there was a female Pharaoh and they practice this thing called them not to memoria, which is Latin basically for damned memory. And you know, they chopped up, they hacked up her reliefs and erased her name or wrote over it, which is something they did in Egypt a lot, but it was targeted harassment when it comes to. But so even what is preserved to us, though, we don't really know her because it's these idealized royal representations of Pharaoh and and some of them she even has a beard, right? Because masculinity being a man being a strong man, that was the template for power. And what I think is so cool about her is a we know her name like 1000s of years later, and that is so incredibly rare, which is why I love this podcast. It's not, you're highlighting, for instance, the fact that I didn't know today's character, you're highlighting the fact that there are more of these stories than we think. So I love her she breaks the mold. And I think that I don't, I don't I wouldn't understand her right, I wouldn't be able to speak her language, but I just want to see how she moves. How somebody who knows she is favored by the gods and the center of all communication, but I'm also the person who's like obsessed with the tip parks that are just Kamala Harris getting off the plane and into you know, like, I'm obsessed with them. Because she's this new female embodiment of power. Yes. I don't sense itself suit, right. Like, I think that actually I take it back. I want to hang out with Camila.
Host 55:12
And the holy, you got the spectrum. You've got that you got the code and you're on the cutting. And I need to look into the chipset because I did not know. I did not know that much about her. Oh, yeah, I didn't look at him. I need to look in. Again, it's just a groundswell just so much right beneath us, right beneath us. Women. Out here, man. We've got the receipts. Yeah. This has been truly just a treat from from start to finish. And I just want to thank you so much, Maggie for, for agreeing to come on the show. Thank you so much.
Unknown Speaker 55:57
Oh, thank you. It's beyond a treat. It's it's I'm really honored. And it's delightful. I'm, you know, I'm not used to just being asked to talk about myself. So that's great. I hope that I did justice to the topic, because I really think this is such a worthy and cool project. And it's something that I will be sharing with all of my friends and my nieces and my nephews. And so I applaud you. Thank you.
Host 56:23
community building. Thank you all about it. And thank you to everyone for listening to another episode of vanguard of the Broncos. This conversation and more resources will be on the audio podcast and website. So check us out. It's a whole world. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and always remember, we are all on the vanguard of a changing time be the difference. lead with love.
Unknown Speaker 56:54
The Secret women not in the reach of manifesting on the ground railroad accident, the matrix, follow me and I can introduce you. Oh, that last one didn't sound too furious.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai