This week’s virago protected her kingdom and her people from exploitation and disrespect. Talk to her nicely for she is the feared and respected Guardian of the Aceh Kingdom, Admiral Keumalahayati. Hear the story of this fierce fighter of the sea and her army of soldiers. Then, journey to our collective human past with renowned art conservationist, Sanchita Balachandran. *TRIGGER WARNING* This episode contains sounds of war. You may hear rapid gunfire, weeping, explosions, intense gore, general violence, screaming, babies crying, blood gushing, and/ or sirens.
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SHOW INFO
This podcast was created and hosted by ChelseaDee
This podcast was executive produced by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams.
This episode features the vocal performances by ChelseaDee and Neruda Williams
Our theme song, “Crown On”, was created by Niambi Ra and Le’Asha
Theme song available for purchases here
Our logo was created by Denzel Faison
Host 1:39
from here you can see everything. Here in Fort in our money, there's over 1000 soldiers, and even more in training. This is a military Logistics Center, and also a refuge. It's also the perfect spot to see all the ships that are coming towards this land. ships that bring delicious spices and exotic delicacies. ships that also bring
Unknown Speaker 2:20
invader!
Host 2:23
bring the admiral Quickly!
they've summoned the admiral, guardian of the che kingdom. This ship is in for now.
The flag they waive is of the Dutch kingdom. Spice traders trying to pass without permission. soldiers to your battle stations. Soldiers We are the guardians of the che kingdom. These ships that sail towards us bring more of the same invaders who have already taken so much from us. Will we let them pass? Will they succeed in their threats against us?
Kheumalahayati, the first woman Admiral in the modern world is going to battle to stop the invaders. The invaders at this time, all the Dutch that spice trader recently discovered a faster way to get to Asia, but there were a few crucial things he did not understand. Number one, there were people, culture and entire kingdoms that existed beyond Europe that will find as they were number two. These people who do not know you or trust you also do not take kindly to being insulted and invaded.
Unknown Speaker 4:25
Silly savages do not understand civilized vaes should be treated with blunt force brutality as often as possible.
Host 4:42
And this guy called on Mr. de Houtman, he practically began the spice trade, and he also terrorized and brutalized native peoples savagely. His initial voyages were a nightmare for humanity. wholesale massacres, robbery rapes, he was committed to a level of savagery that the admiral could not abide by. he sails here into our water without permission, then insults our culture. And this will not stand. Crush them. crush this entire fleet. As for that loud mouth monster, leave him for me to handle personally.
Unknown Speaker 5:39
My ship is besieged by chance.
Unknown Speaker 5:46
I was only trying to bring you stuff in nice situation. You should be thanking me I was trying to help you.
Host 5:58
We don't need your kind of help. No Dutch. No Portuguese. No English ships will pass these shores without permission. Come correct. With diplomacy and negotiation. respect us. or prepare to meet your end
after the admiral killed cornice, and then proceeded to crush a whole bunch of Dutch fleets, will invaders pass us? No!
Unknown Speaker 6:42
these people have no claim here. We will teach them whose land this is.
Host 6:50
The Admiral gained a reputation for being the guardian. European royalty learned that they'd had to contend with her if they wanted to access Asia for trading. The Dutch had to apologize and send emissaries to begin negotiations. And the Ambrose met that delegation at the shore and when the English wanted to begin trading
Unknown Speaker 7:24
these savages must be shown civilization majesty, we must tread lightly, be as diplomatic as possible. The Guardian of the uptake kingdom is not to be trifled with. Why do you happen to mean? Admiral Kheumalahayati? neutral royal highness.
Host 7:54
I respect a woman who runs a tight ship. I will write her a letter and send you as my emissary to begin negotiations and to make nice with her. The fate of the Empire depends upon you. When Queen Elizabeth slaughter arrived, along with the emissaries be Admiral met them at the shore. The Admiral died years later and battle with the Portuguese and was buried in the village were fought Inong Bali is Inong Bali village, also known as village of the widows. You see, this was no average forte and these were no average soldiers. Every soldier was a woman or child who had lost a relative to the violence of the invaders. Along with the Admiral. These women watched over their kingdom, choosing to become soldiers in addition to grieving mothers and daughters and sisters and wives. The Admiral and the Inong Bali fleet watched over their kingdom van and as a suspect in many ways, they still do to this day.
brave people, gals guys and everybody in between what is making your heart sing today? Have you checked in Welcome to another episode of Vanguard of the Viragoes where we revisit the heroines of human history to learn from this hidden archive of treasures. I'm your hostess with the most s. Chelsea beat. I'm currently in Washington, DC and I want to uplift that I am on the ancestral lands of the necochea tank and a causton and piscataway peoples. I want to uplift all the lives, and all the blood that has been shed on this land for this land for longer than any of us can imagine. Slight accessibility check him. I'm feeling very energized, doing really well. Yeah. And figuring that out one second. One second residual. Yeah, actually, we're expecting a delivery. So there's that. This is the portion of the show where I chat with a special guest. I just like to tell stories. I'm a creative who is addicted to diverse representation and storytelling, for I think the stories that we tell mold the people that we become, but my guests on this show are folks who are actively studying preserving, and I would argue, making history. These are the real heroes. And today's hero is sanchita. Bala Chung balachandran. Welcome, and thank you for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. It's really wonderful to be part of this. folk, I'm so glad to see you. I've this is this is really our initial meeting, I contacted you via email. And here we are. And it's, I'm really grateful to be able to talk with you today and make these connections throughout history.
Unknown Speaker 11:47
Same maybe one day we can actually meet in person when when we're allowed to do that.
Host 11:52
You know, when outside opens again, you know what, it's not a maybe when outside opens again, I Oh, every guest will hear a coffee. quote me on that. Take that down. Okay, that's happening. So how are you doing? How are things? How are things where you are, you know, how you feeling today?
Unknown Speaker 12:11
I think, gosh, it's it's a strange day, as you know, between what's happening actively in Washington right now, with the Congress, but it's also you know, it's a beautiful day, it's sunny, my family's, you know, well and healthy. And I just want to say, you know, whoever's listening, I hope you're all staying healthy and safe. You know,
Host 12:37
I'm really interested in in your insight into what you've learned about human activity and behavior in the past that could maybe, you know, give some insight into what, what we could do with what we're dealing with now. You know,
Unknown Speaker 12:57
gosh, the only thing I feel like I know from all my work, so humans are messy, messy beings.
Host 13:03
Yes. And you know what, that's a great reminder. That's a great reminder, because I do have this kind of idea of, of the classics of history is some place of purity, that there was like, some pure human experience and some some, yeah, this this, this, this type of clean slate where everything was simple, and there was a formula. But it's actually a really great reminder that, no, we're still trying to figure out how to share space, how to be together, how to deal with migration, how to deal with the weather. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that's helpful. So yeah, I think we should definitely talk about the mess. Well, I look
Unknown Speaker 13:51
at all these things that people made, you know, 1000s of years ago, and there's everything from the kind of perfect crafts person who never cut a single corner and made these incredible things that are almost perfect and unimaginable, you know, in terms of their execution, and then you've got the blobs and the screw ups and, you know, the literal cutting of corners. And I think for me, it keeps them very grounded that humans have always been themselves. And you know, we can't kind of come up with an explanation for how people x did things because within people x are lots of human beings who had complicated feelings.
Host 14:35
I mean, it's such a it did that mean what you're saying is so beautiful because it speaks to one of one of the things I'm really passionate about with this podcast is bringing awareness to the diverse body of voices who are researching who are preserving who are recording the histories, of of a diverse body of people, you know, there there wasn't this A time into civilization where there was just one group of people this monoculture, you know, this motto race or you know, it was always diversity, there was always a bunch of different types and everything. And I guess my question, one of my questions is like, why is that so difficult to celebrate? You know, what, why? Why is it more threatening? difference and mess? Then, you know, which is a huge philosophical.
Unknown Speaker 15:33
I mean, I think it's, it's a really important question to ask, you know, why does it scare us that things are always more complicated? I mean, I think on some level, maybe it's the kind of fight or flight survival, you know, tendency, maybe it's a biological thing, we just need to know the answer. We just need to decide whether this is threatening to us or not. But I think, to me, what I'm always really kind of excited by is when you have people asking really different questions, you know, I think you're like, people come at things with their, their own perspective, their own kind of embodied experience of the world. And that just means they're going to ask really different questions. And I always find it so exciting, because, you know, I've, I feel like so many of these stories have been told the same way over and over again. And it's frankly, boring. At some point, you're just like, Is this all there is, and then someone comes at it with a completely different perspective, and suddenly, it comes alive again. And I think that is the, you know, the promise of more diverse storytelling that something that feels so kind of staid and easily explicable, is suddenly just broken open into all these other questions.
Host 16:49
I love him, I love this. I love this image of breaking something open into a whole lot of other questions, because, you know, we spoke a little bit about this earlier, but I was introduced to Medea and antigoni, you know, these these plays from? Use, you spoke about this, this this place of embodiment. And what my teachers did in high school and undergrad was they really made these classics, they broke them open with all these questions about, well, what does integrity teach us about protest and civil disobedience, you know, and that, for me, it was so foreign to think of the classics as having this real present day impact in your life. And so that's really kind of where I got my start. And yet at the same time, becoming addicted to this language, and the scale and the epicness. And the, the, the human essence that these writers were getting at. And yet at the same time, as a young black actor, feeling like I can't I'm not a part of the class. You know, I people don't think of me when they think of media or integrity. I'm not supposed to be enjoying reveling in finding myself connecting these, these classics to my, my culture, my experience. And so I, but that's unfair. You know, I
Unknown Speaker 18:27
agree, it is completely unfair, because to me a disservice. I mean, what is the point of actually making, you know, any kind of art, right? And I think, for a lot of us makers, this kind of gets to the core of why bother putting yourself out there? Because they're always thinking, well, who's gonna want to know something from my perspective, right? Who am I, to kind of interject my perspective into this world of the arts and capital letters. And I think that's what's so interesting about, you know, reading anything, or visual art or experiencing any kind of art form where it comes from a very specific perspective. But what is really extraordinary about it is if you've made it in a way that invites engagement, anyone can participate, right? I think it just requires that the person interested in participating, being willing to kind of take that step towards you, in the same way that the person who made it had to kind of put themselves out there. And, you know, again, like, I would have never thought in, you know, if you told me five years ago, I'd be fascinated by ancient Athens in this moment, where, you know, of course, democracy is born, but at the same time, there are these really virulent, anti democratic things happening to anyone who wasn't a male citizen of Athens, I would have said, well, that has nothing to do with me, right? Like this is just too far afield for me. Because why do I want to know about that, right? And it's interesting. I was reading Medea a couple of years ago. And I have, you know, two young brown kids, right. And I and I usually work early in the morning, and then you know, we're having breakfast before school. And they were asking me, I mean, this is pretty rare, but they were asking me what I was reading, because I had the book out. And so I kind of gingerly was, was explaining the story. And both of them, you know, they're there with their cereal. And one of them's like, wait, she kills her kids. You know, sorry, spoiler alert, she, she kills her. But both of them were like, you know, eating their cereal, and they're just first they were horrified. And then I tried to kind of build some context, you know, not trying to explain either way. What I mean, I think that's the point of the play, right? It's not clear. I mean, everyone is, is implicated is complicit. Right. And, and my younger one who was six at the time, you know, she's listening to some of the rhetoric that comes out in the play itself. And she said, Oh, you mean, like what our president says sometimes. And, you know, I just think that this is where art can complicate, and open conversations in ways that we don't expect. Mm hmm. Part of the challenge is to be willing to be really uncomfortable in these moments where you're like, Oh, I don't think a six year old should be hearing about a mother killing her children.
Host 21:23
Right. Right. Like, that's really messy. That's really complicated. And there's a lot of dynamics, and yet, your child was able to make this connection, you know, across time, in a meaningful way, you know, which just opens up, again, cracks open the world and to more questions of, you know, so when has this happened before? And are there any other instances of this? And, and and I don't know, maybe there's a new passion that come or new obsession that comes out of tracking on the job? this obsession that leads to employment,
Unknown Speaker 22:07
your curiosity make you've gainfully employed with health insurance? No, but I mean, I think this is, this is the challenge. I mean, especially in this moment of, you know, incredible upheaval, right? We've been living through with the pandemic with these, I mean, a violent insurrection, kind of the, the ways in which we're seeing very clearly how so many justices play themselves out, especially on non white bodies, right, we have to have these conversations. And I think what I'm always kind of amazed by is, when you have these conversations and really open ways and you know, again, I have I have young young children, I think they always amaze me in their ability to sort of, you know, really, really sit with it and and think through it, but also kind of recalibrate in a way and just sort of say, Okay, well, what's for dinner? You know, kind of like, we need to think about the kind of practical everyday, how are we going to get through this? And how are we going to think about these big questions that have plagued us through time
Host 23:15
to get right through time, like really feeling that really feeling the plague through time today? I've intended no pun intended, but really like, wow, we're still we're still finding it, we're still finding it. Alright, so let's let's dig in. What can you share a bit about your area of expertise? What period of history you study? And, you know, what drew you to it? Why why that time and or material culture?
Unknown Speaker 23:48
Sure. Well, can I can I stop for a second and just make a land acknowledgement? Because I yes, that with, you know, anytime I speak. So I'm speaking to you from Baltimore, what is now called Baltimore, so we're not too far away. So we must make it possible to meet at some point. But I'm on sesco hanoch, land, ancestral susquehannock land, but this is a place of gathering and stewardship for the ACA hammock, the Piscataway, the lumbee, the Cherokee and the nanticoke people. So I'm just very grateful to have, you know, been able to call this place home. So I've been here in Baltimore, gosh, almost 12 years and my, my field of expertise, I'm trained as an art conservator. And I specialize in the care and preservation of historic objects, and I specifically focus on ancient archaeological materials. And in my regular work job, I am the Associate Director of the Johns Hopkins Archaeological Museum where I steward the ancient collection there and I do research on ancient objects from mostly the region. of the ancient Mediterranean. So Greece, Rome, Egypt, the ancient Near East. So cool. So cool, is pretty great.
Host 25:14
I mean, as an artist, it's like, oh, somebody could one day, take care of my things. That's, that's, that's really wonderful to know. But this this, this word of stewarding, you know, it's such a, it's such a robust word to me, that is such a specific word choice. I mean, there's a level of care and investment in the future survival of this thing that is implied by the word, steward to me, what what does it What does that word mean for you? And how does it function? In your work? Your roles? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 25:56
I mean, I think, because, you know, I spend a lot of time with other people's things, right. I think. I mean, I think this is what is so hard to get across, sometimes to people who aren't aware of how sort of museum people work. I mean, we spend under normal circumstances, so much of our time with other people's things. And I think, to me, that really brings up a very, I don't know, sacred is not the right word, but a very sort of solemn, but also extremely joyful responsibility to, you know, make sure that these these objects, these items, are really these kind of traces of people's families, their pasts, their histories, that they remain available, to whoever might need to see them in the future. And I think I, you know, you also get to know things in really difficult to explain ways, I mean, they're, they're familiar, you know, items, I'm kind of go and check on them. Even in pandemic times, I'm able to go in and kind of check on everything. And I think there's a really intimate relationship that someone like me ends up developing with the items we are, you know, really lucky to care for. And I think the other thing that comes up with me, with this term stewardship is that of this is a really temporary position that I'm in, you know, I think, given the history of museums, as being very much, you know, embedded in a kind of colonial and imperial past. And given that museums really, you know, have been quite complicit in and benefited from white supremacy, it's really important to me to think about, you know, I'm a short term care of these items, and I have a certain kind of responsibility to make sure that they are available to whoever needs them in the future. And I think this is all more important given that, you know, so many items were removed from their, their originating communities, often without consent or under duress. And so, you know, we just have to be very aware of that history when we're doing our work.
Host 28:13
And I, again, I'm going back to this image of cracking things open and really challenging the assumptions of, you know, where these things come from, where these ideas come from these institutions of being in museums, where does this come from, I actually, I had a summer job at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington DC is about two or three years, it was like an internship, a paid internship, and we learned all about just careers in a museum, you know, all the different things you could do. And at the National Portrait Gallery, there is a wing, that is the art conservation wing, and they have these huge glass walls. And you can like, watch people work on these pieces of preserving these pieces of art, conserving them. And it was it blew my mind and I was in high school at the time, it blew my mind that there was such a science you know, that there was like, the science of recreation, the study, it was a it was a it was something that that was at the intersection of art and science and history. And I was amazed in from then on out I was like, I want to know more about how do you even how does one begin to learn about these things like what usually Can you tell us a little bit about what
Unknown Speaker 29:53
you know, this is where like me hoping that my child gets gainful employment just kind of comes back to smack me in the face because You know, I'm an immigrant kid, right? So my, it was very clear from my early age that I was supposed to get a good job as a doctor or an engineer, or at least that's how I interpreted it. And as a, you know, a very dutiful brown student who wanted to go to a good college, I took every Advanced Placement class my high school offered, and one of them was art history, which I had no interest in. And what's really interesting is, you know, my mother used to work for the Indian government, and she would take me to all these historic places in India, or we would go to these very historic sites like, you know, temples for for worship, and I never paid any attention to their antiquity or their age, like I just did not pay any attention. I just thought it was a drag. And then I took this AP art history class. And you know, there was Gerald Citron. You know, thank Kevin for Gerald Citron wherever you are in the afterlife. But you know, you're sitting in his classroom and looking at all of this artwork, and having kind of the code of how to read art explained, I suddenly realized that I was fascinated by this. And he really took me to the first museum where I was paying attention. You know, we went to the Getty Villa, which is the first Getty, the original Getty Museum. And I just remember standing in these rooms, you know, and they're these portraits of, of like English countrysides, with these, you know, super white women with their rosy cheeks and their dogs and their horses. And I just thought, this has nothing to do with my life experience. And yet, I want to be here, what is going on. And, you know, I went off to college with my very nice AP art history score. And I thought, I'm just gonna take one art history class, because you know, it's kind of fun. And I need the requirement while I'm getting my pre med requirements anyway, right, I have to do this class. And of course, I got completely sucked in, and I got an internship, a paid internship. And this is where, you know, I think if you want more diverse people in the arts, you need to pay them in order to do this work at an earlier date, because we can't afford it. We can't volunteer our time, I needed a job. And that was when I first met, you know, museum conservators. And I thought, Wait, I don't, I can still be premed. I can do all the science, but I can do the art. And I can do things with my hands. And you know, from then on, there was just no turning back. And I've just saved my I told my mother, I was going to be applying to grad school in art conservation, or basically told her wasn't going to be pre med while she was driving on the freeway, which I would never do. Don't break any news like that to a parent, you know, while in a moving vehicle. But that was sort of it. I made the decision. And if for a long time, I thought it was a crazy idea. Because you know, being in the arts always feels extremely precarious, I think. But and people told me it's precarious, you won't be really able to earn very much. And I still did it because I couldn't get out of my head. So here I am.
Host 33:25
You know, and that's one of the things that I really love to hear from other from other creatives, other other people who are thinking about history and time is what is haunting you. Because there does feel like a bit of haunting that happens. It feels like a bit of something following you some, some, some some question or some. I don't know some. Do you have this feeling? Do you ever feel like there's something pushing your your quest to learn more? Or is it curiosity? You know, what?
Unknown Speaker 34:05
I don't think I could explain it. I just, I was obsessed. But it's funny, you know, I've been in the field now, what over two decades, and it's only been relatively recently that I kind of got confirmation that whatever it was that I was trying to follow. It makes sense now, so a bit of a digression. Right? So 10 years ago, I, I had the luck of getting a Fulbright Fellowship and I went, I went to India went back to India, to research these, this the history of how metals were conserved in southern India. And I was in this, you know, museum archive. And I see, you know, all of this correspondence about people who are studying these ancient bronzes, right, the same things I have come to study, and I'm reading through this correspondence, it was hot it was the reports were kind of boring, and I saw this name and I thought That's weird, you know, just just little like little thing in my brain. And then I turned the page. And then a few pages later went way way I know that name. And I went back. And it turns out my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, in the 1930s, and 40s, was researching the same bronzes that I had come to research, you know, almost a century later, and nobody in our family. Right. And there he was, I mean, he's thanked in some publications that I later found, and there he is doing the same work. And it was one of those Thunderbolt moments where you're like, this is what I was supposed to be doing. And then I thought that was amazing, right? This, this explains it all. And then in February of 2020, I was in London, I had, you know, amazingly funding to do research in Britain. And I just happened to go to the British Library. And this, it helps when you have, you know, a spouse who's also like a similar nerd. And yes, so we had known about my my maternal grandfather, and his title, he had this title. So I'm, I'm a conservator. My maternal grandfather, his official title was conservator of forests. Okay, so he didn't work in the in the art world, but his title was conservator of forests. And I knew his name, obviously. But I, you know, he passed away when my my mother was quite young. So of course, I never met him. And in kind of doing the Quick Search, and this is why everything should be cataloged and archived. Because we search the British Library, and there was this note that a passport belonging to a person with my grandfather's name happened to be at the British Library. So I went to see this document. And I got to meet my grandfather in the archive. Oh, yeah. So this is, you know, these, um, he has the same title. And these are just these moments where you're like, is, am I am I making this up? Or was this all meant to be? And I think, you know, to find not one but two grandfathers in an archive, you know, like, countries apart 10 years apart? 20 years, starting a career, you're sort of like, okay, I this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I think
Host 37:27
that is, that is a glorious that is, I mean, wow, I should have, I should have brought some tissues. around me, but wow, that, that rocks on so many levels, so many levels, I, I actually only recently began to really dig into archives, like hate, like hands on going through like boxes, and having to wear the gloves and really digging in. And it was at the schomburg Center in Harlem, New York. And I was I put the gloves on, I was in a box. And I actually saw the deeds of sale for slaves and slave peoples. And it was a transaction to like, balance some type of debt or something. And just holding that document. Yeah. And knowing that this is someone This is evidence of somebody's life, What's life, you know? And it was so precious. And it's just hard. It haunts me to this day, is it something, I don't know, something happened. And I was like, I think archives are super important now, like, I we have to protect them. We have to, we have to talk about them, we have to contribute to them, we have to make them. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Unknown Speaker 38:57
I mean, if I can just say I think what I've, what I've learned is, you know, like we all have really complicated relationships with the archive or the archives, right, all of these collections that have been formed under really difficult, problematic circumstances. Right. What and it's interesting, having found my grandfather's passport, you know, I texted my family, and none of my family members are in the museum or archives world and their first reaction was, well, why is it with with them and not with us? Right. And I think I think this really brought home to me the challenge of, you know, when you're in the position of caring, right, and you might not have been the one that kind of perpetrated that first injustice or complicated transaction, but it just I think makes you that much more aware of how important your stewardship is because someone else will want Someone else needs that at some point, you can't say it's going to be next week. And this is where I think a lot of the metrics about, you know, museum visitorship and archive use are the don't really kind of get at the power of the things we hold, right? Because someone will need that. And it will fundamentally change their life. But how do you make that a statistic?
Host 40:23
Right, how do you measure that? Like, the the value of that, man, I mean, that's so. Wow, wow. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 40:36
That's just wonderful to work and things that, you know, feel like real.
Host 40:41
Yeah. And on so many different planes, you know, and I love those moments where it feels that you feel like, Oh, that's why I've been doing this and following this for so long. Like, you there, there, there are characters in plays, that I have not written that live in my head, and are constantly like, Okay, so, today, well is today, the day you're going to write us down, because time now, it's time now we've got some things to say, you know, in so for you to be having this similar experience, but with objects, you know, is like, so glorious, what's the first question that? What's the first thing that you think when you come into contact with with an object that you're going to study?
Unknown Speaker 41:33
Well, I'm very lucky in that I get to hold things, you know. And to me, the first thing is just the kind of sensory experience of holding something right. Is it heavy? Does it fit in my hand? You know, just is it shiny? Does it feel smooth, even through gloves, I mean, to me, I'm always immediately drawn to kind of the physicality of something and how a human being would have related to it. And it's just because I'm so lucky to take that for granted. And, you know, my classroom, you know, I always teach with ancient objects, it's really important that my students get a chance to work with actual objects. And I just love watching that, that first moment, you know, where students are so nervous about holding something because it's 1000s of years old. But there's just that sense of real connection, right? Someone else held this in their hand 2000 years ago, it you can't, you can't kind of capture that it's just such a like a, again, it's like a thunderbolt moment, like, Okay, this is a real tear. Absolutely. And then, of course, you know, I'm really fascinated by ancient technology, how did people make all these things. And I mean, I'm not a, I'm not an artist, in the sense that I don't make physical objects. But I have studied them long enough that I know that nothing is made easily, you know, even the kind of blobby pinch pots that you might have from antiquity. And there are a lot of those too, right. Just Just thinking about the amount of work and expertise and resource that had to go into, you know, even finding where the clay is gonna come from making even the pinch pot firing it, you know, we're gonna get the fuel from, where's the water coming from, you know, they're just all these different moments of expertise, that go into making even a very simple thing. So when you look at some of these, you know, some of these incredible things that are left over from antiquity, you just, I find myself always marveling at that kind of, you know, again, mastery is not the right word, because I really dislike that word. For all of its connotations, but just the awareness, the knowledge, the kind of lineage that people also came with, you know, how long had this been in their families or in their communities that they knew how to do this, I kind of know how but also just the creativity, right? The desire to make even if you're making something to sell, to live, it's there's there's a real sense of purpose to it and intention. And I think that that sense of ancient human intention to me always gets me every time.
Host 44:27
ancient, ancient human intention. gotta write that down. Write that down. Wow. I mean, there's something that you mentioned on your website, reflectance transformation, imaging. Is that something that you're using to find? I think you refer to it as the first the first drafts for these objects of art. I mean, what is our T How are we using it?
Unknown Speaker 45:03
Yeah, so, so I should step back and say a little bit, you know, like, I think when people have an image of what a conservator looks like, we're often you know, like a white lab coat. And maybe we have, you know, q tips or tiny little brushes in our hands. And we're, you know, like cleaning things off of sculpture. I mean, you know, they're all of these kind of pictures. And we do do those things as well. Right? or looking through a microscope. Those are all things we do. But, you know, to me, what I really look for is a combination of approaches to studying anything, because, you know, and I guess the other thing that people think of is like, you take a sample, and you put it in some kind of machine, and you get some answer about, you know, the history of the world, right? Like, there's these really strange, like, super scientific visions of who we are. But I think ultimately, we are humanists at heart. At least that's how I see myself, right? I'm really interested in how does technology help us get closer to the ancient people who made these things are used these things. And so I always find that I'm trying for lots of different approaches to get at those, those people whose only trace probably is that thing that they made, no, we're not going to probably know their names, we don't know where they really lived, what their lives were like, but they're, they're preserved in the thing. And so in order to get to that, you can do the kind of fancy you know, technology and you can just do you know, look at something with your eyes or hold something with your your hands. But something like reflectance transformation, imaging, I think gets a what are some really accessible technologies that allow us to see better or look better. And so reflectance transformation imaging is essentially a kind of photography. It's a relatively simple, low tech photographic technique. But what it allows you to do is to kind of bring a lot of photos together in this, this platform that allows you to imagine light moving across the surface, when it's not really moving across the surface, it's a little hard to describe, but I can, of course, share some videos of what that looks like. But what it does is as this light kind of moves across the surface, and you've probably seen this, you know, even when you're sitting somewhere and light moves across, say your room, you notice things differently, right? You're like catching on certain things. And you're like, I didn't notice that there's a little divot in that piece of furniture or whatever it is. So this technology allows you to look at surfaces at that kind of minute level, what's happening as the light moves around, and I use it primarily now to look at ancient ceramics that were made in Athens, between the sixth century BCE to the early fourth century BCE, so about 2500 years ago. And you're probably familiar with some of these parts. If you've ever been in a museum where you've seen photos of what you know, quote, unquote, what Ancient Greece looked like, you've probably seen an Athenian pod. And these are either red figures on black surfaces, or black colored figures on red surfaces. And they're often incredibly detailed. You know, these, there are pictures of epic myths and lots of figures. And I mean, they're just incredible. And if you look at them up close, I mean, they are painted with such precision. It's absolutely mind boggling. But you look at these things, and you go, Well, how did someone paint this very complicated picture on a pot, and then that pot went into a kiln and went up to 1000 degrees centigrade, right.
Unknown Speaker 48:50
And so I've been looking at these drawings that are actually underneath the paintings, because you can't just wing it, you really have to really, like develop the picture to some extent before you start painting it. And so this RTI technology allows you to see all the ways in which people were basically figuring out what the picture was going to look like. And if you think about it, so here are people you've got a wet pot, right, the pot is just been thrown on a wheel. It's probably still kind of damp, but not mushy. And you as the artist are thinking, Okay, now I got to draw an Athena for whatever, right. And you are taking a tool of some kind, and we don't have any of these tools that have survived antiquity, so I would love to know what they were actually working with. But you know, we have these traces of people sketching out the code, and what you see is like, way more lines of sketching, then actually are painted in and this has led, you know, I think some scholars to think well, you know, they're just it this is not serious work like people did. All the time. So what's the big deal with all these sketches, we should pay more attention to the final finished painting, and perhaps we should. But if you look at the sketches and you look at, you know how people are talking about how we understand drawing now, what it does to your brain and your body as you're drawing, it's, it's actually the moment where creativity is happening in real time. And you're just sitting there watching them, like with this RTI imaging, you are watching somebody's brain and body make sense of what they're thinking in that moment. And ever since I've, you know, kind of delved a little bit into this drawing literature, I can't think that because it's, it's real time someone kind of figuring out what they're going to do on the surface
Host 50:48
as a creative. I'm like, I the drafts are where the story story is made. Like, it's where it finally brought up, you know what I mean? Absolutely. I
Unknown Speaker 51:01
mean, aren't you always wondering like, how did you come up with the idea? What was the what were the paths you tried? And then you abandoned? And then how did you refine it? I mean, to me, that is the most exciting part. I mean, the final product is amazing, of course. Right? But I want to see the vulnerable parts where you had no idea what you were doing, and you still kind of muddled through it.
Host 51:25
And that is, you know, that's the bad is the mess of the human experience that I'm like, taking so much comfort in like, there's a draft we were, we're chipping away at this thing. We're trying to articulate this idea round after round after round. And, you know, here we are 2021 trying to get this draft, you know, China to do something with this draft. So much intimacy with these with the, do you feel a sense of intimacy with with these artists as you, you know, track through their problems? Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 52:04
I mean, I feel I've, you know, it's, it's so weird, like, you just start to you start to recognize people, right? You're like, Oh, there you are, you know, it sounds bizarre to say out loud, but it to me, that's, that's the real joy, like you, you suddenly are in the workshop, and you kind of see this moment with someone I can never identify. And, you know, I think a lot of times these drawings have been really dismissed as well. I mean, whoever these people were, they made 1000s of these pots, you know, there's nothing creative necessarily about this, in that they made 1000s of these parts, but I think, you know, as again, as creative people, like every time you start something, even if you've done something similar, it's a mess, yours,
Host 52:53
God would again, what am I gonna do?
Unknown Speaker 52:56
Yeah. And and I think what adds another level of, I guess, I don't know, my desire to be close to these people is the awareness that many of the people we think many of the people making pots in ancient Athens at this time. Were actually what people who are described as medics or resident aliens. So there are people who weren't Athenian citizens, but who actually, you know, came to Athens pay the special tax in order to work there. And were clearly of much lower, you know, sort of police certainly had no political power. To me, what adds this additional layer of fascination is because so many of these people are thought to be medics, these resident aliens, not true Athenians weren't given that kind of political standing, making these pots. To me, I'm even more hated. Right. What were they? What were they thinking? And how do we get in there experiencing
Host 53:59
this world? I mean, this leads me to my next question is, I would love to hear more about the nonprofit organization that you work with untold stories, because Are you is, is the is the organization and extension of this quest to find more about these artists or
Unknown Speaker 54:18
so I mean, really untold stories came about. So I founded it in 2017. Really, as a more kind of outward facing organization, because a lot of like a lot of the work that I think we do as conservators stays very kind of insular to us, right, these strange, esoteric insights. But you know, I think are fascinating, but perhaps more people in the world aren't necessarily that excited about. But to me what was really concerning and this is something that I've felt in the field for a long time in the field of really preservation and cultural heritage more generally, is that the way the field is set up Really leaves out a lot of people. I think too many people think of cultural heritage as something that lives in museums, or in big fancy monuments. And really, cultural heritage is what we all have, right? We are all kind of raised in our own heritage. And we all have ways that we learn to preserve our histories through you know, stories through objects that we care for. And that, that we pass on as a way of, you know, staying Connect connected to our lineages and you know, giving ourselves a sense of strength and place in the world. And unfortunately, so much of the museum world is really disconnected from that very kind of intimate kind of community centric work. And I needed a place to talk to people outside the museum field, who kind of understood the museum field, who could offer ways to make those connections again, because to me, the real possibility, the real promise of museums, and the kinds of work that we do, is to link again, right communities and things and histories in ways that are really enriching and revitalizing. And to I mean, we can never reverse I think that the pain and the the horror of the kind of colonial work that went into making museums, but we can repair and I, you know, I'm a repair by training, that's what a conservator does, we work. But we also need to repair relationships. I mean, to me, that is, that's the hardest work we have in front of us. But but that, to me, is why we should exist. So untold stories was a way to speak and really speak specifically to bipoc people who are doing this work in really powerful community centric ways. Because the museum field is so it's really kind of invested in a lot of white scholarship and leadership. And that I think, really needs to change,
Host 57:08
which is so it's just so it's so important to really think about conservation is going beyond the walls of these institutions. And I love the idea of, of your work complicating these narratives, as you include more you know, what I mean, as you repair what has been breached, which is thinking about the just thinking about recent events, I'm like, Yes, repairing, healing, reconnecting, all that stuff is going to be crucial, you know, if we intend to survive.
Unknown Speaker 57:52
Well, and I think just, you know, asking people what, what they need? I mean, it just seems so basic, you know, what, what do you need? What do you as a community member in place x need in order to feel like, We value your past, your present and your future, right? Like, it's really about saying, We care about this kind of longevity of who you are, and where you came from, and who, you know, your, your future kind of descendants will be. And I think this is all the more crucial at a time where it feels like we're we're fighting, we're literally fighting each other, right, for whose history gets to be taken seriously. And the thing is, we I mean, everybody's history needs to be taken seriously, we wouldn't be in this place of having to kind of fight for space, if we could all acknowledge that everybody is valid, like everybody has this, you know, powerful role to play in our society. But that, I mean, I think this is where certainly museums need to really step up, and and take a look at their collections and say, well, whose histories have we said we care about? And whose histories have we not that we care about? And I think this also gets to, you know, how we collect objects and kind of elevate them to being important, you know, because who, who gets to have fancy stuff or get their names written down? Right. And this is where I think a lot of the approaches that I tend to take as a conservator, which are much more experimental or certainly interdisciplinary is because because of the gaps in terms of whose histories do not get told or are erased or not bothered to be collected, because they're not seen as essential to telling the history of place x or time x. And so, you know, we need to, we need to be more curious about all those other people who were there. Who did not get to leave the same kind of trace? Because obviously those places existed because of their, their labor, their ingenuity, their, you know, expertise and their real humaneness. So how do we get at that? If we're not willing to be more experimental?
Host 1:00:17
Absolutely. I feel like this guides my work as a theatre maker. It's like, how are we going to reengage? How are we going to deepen our connection to understanding of and desire to love support and protect? You know, and how can we include this? This love in our, in our concept of leadership, you know what I mean? How can we combine the two which, which makes me think of the verado that we're focusing on for this episode? Yeah, which is Admiral camillia hottie who also had in a village full of widows who became an army, with her in preservation of their culture up against the spice trade that was starting to happen in that region. And recently, I've thought a lot about where does nurture and caregiving and love and compassion and listening? Are these leadership skills, you know, and I can see evidence of them being so from from stories like Admiral So, I mean, what, have you ever heard of the admiral before? Were you familiar with her?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:34
I was not. But I mean, to be honest, when I when I started listening to the piece, I thought, well, that doesn't surprise me. Because I mean, perhaps you've experienced this too. I mean, I, I come from a long line of women who just got the work done, right? Yeah, this is the like, this is the situation, we're going to get the work done. And we're going to do it in a way that protect people who need it. And so in that sense that that was a very, I mean, I, that really resonated with me. And I think the other thing that I was really taken with was, I mean, she's a technical specialist and a strategist, you know, she can, she can manage the waters, and, you know, warfare on water. I mean, to me that I just love the idea of a very sort of technically minded woman who's also extremely strategic, and knows exactly how to get things done. Because again, these are qualities I recognize in a lot of the women I admire. It's just not something that is necessarily seen as you know, womanly, whatever that means, whenever I think I can't be nicer. Why don't you smile more? No, I don't want to smile more, I want to tell you exactly how we should do this. Because I'm, I'm an extremely competent person.
Host 1:03:01
Yes. Yes. That's less smiling and more, getting the work done. You know?
Unknown Speaker 1:03:08
What, and I think the other thing that kind of came to mind, right, is leadership without exploitation. Right? Right. Because Because it seems to me, you know, the way and this has bothered me, I think about academia, and I would say, archaeology more generally, for a long time. And, you know, I'm certainly not alone in this. But the idea that somehow knowledge and kind of awareness of, of what you what you should know, requires taking that information without asking permission appropriately, right like that, there needs to be a way of acknowledging the knowledge is that other people have without simply kind of taking it for your own. And I think the place where this comes to mind to me a lot, and I used to, you know, work on field excavations, and some of the places that I worked. We were excavating, you know, funerary spaces, and, and probably everyone who's into archaeology has seen those photos, right, of those, those graves that are opened up, and there's that individual there with all the grave goods. And I mean, to be fair, those are incredibly, you know, they're, they're tantalizing images on on one, you know, on one level, but, you know, that's that's somebody's family member there, right like that, that that person did not give us consent to do that. And I think this is where I find myself constantly kind of coming up against what I was taught that, you know, the the desire for knowledge, the way that one gets knowledge means that you're allowed to do things that as a human being you might not agree with. And this is a real challenge for, I think museum professionals, archaeologists, any of us really in kind of quote unquote and knowledge production, right? Do you have the right to be investigating these things? And have you really thought about the methodology that you're using. And for me, some of the hardest lessons I've learned, and I learned them, I would say almost like on a weekly basis is realizing the things that I thought were reasonable professional practice are really rooted in a kind of exploitative paradigm. And changing those means really changing the way that I work. And it's, it's hard to own up to when you know, oh, I could get this other cool thing, I could get this other cool bit of information. But is it right to do that, right. So thinking about your ethical responsibility as a researcher, that, that is tricky when you want to be an ethical human being, and for them to kind of be
Host 1:05:51
at odds in some ways? Yeah, I'm sure that is a, that's a real dance, I definitely have been thinking in the process of creating my own work and creating collectives and working with other people in collaboration, how to do that outside of the realm of exploitation, you know how to do that in a way that is respectful of where all these ideas come from how to credit people, how to compensate them how to just sustainably create work in a way that generates vitality for the community that it comes from, you know, what I mean, recognizing that is coming from, from a community and honoring that, in that is now as I venture into creating my own projects and doing more of my own work. It is something that I am trying to hold, as you said it earlier, I'm trying to hold it as an extremely joyful responsibility of like, how, how can we do this without exploitation, there are a new way to lead, is there a new way to be in relationship with communities knowledge, information, how this information is being shared? Because I also wonder if people do not feel rooted in and connected to these cultural institutions, then wouldn't they wither by the wayside because people would not feel invited, they wouldn't feel like this is something I should defend, or this is something that I should protect as a as a culture, you know what I mean, because they didn't feel invited, they didn't feel there was a place there for them to begin with. So it kind of puts everything at risk.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:31
I mean, I think that the conditions around, you know, whether people feel connected or not, to something are really important to interrogate, I mean, it's sort of like your, you know, your reaction to you know, Greek, ancient Greek theatre, you have a different relationship to it, even though it has these really problematic, you know, ways in it in which it's been deployed, you can still feel connected to it and feel the need to protect it as a kind of cultural artifact or an art form. And I think that's true for so many different, you know, kinds of archives or collections. You know, I, for example, I think there's been a huge uproar over, of course, Confederate monuments. And I think, I don't necessarily want them standing in public spaces, and kind of peering down on people and upholding a particular kind of history. That is really, I mean, it's wrong. But I would never want those sculptures destroyed, right? I need I need the physical evidence, right. But I need it in a way that can, again, allow for conversation to begin, that offers the hope of potential repair, and it's gonna be messy. I mean, I'm not kind of disillusioned necessarily that, you know, we could, we could fix this somehow. But we have to have that conversation, and it's gonna be horrible. And we have to let the right people kind of steward that relationship as well. Right. It can't be from the perspective of people who feel like it is their right to always have, you know, say, for example, the Tandy monument, which here in Baltimore, you know, here's this man who said, black people were not the actual equivalent of white people, like he does not need to be in the public square, but I also think certain person has to be able to start that conversation, who's not invested in that history. But to interrogate it. I think we, we have we owe it to ourselves as a society, to really delve into the things that make it really hard for us to see each other. But, you know, I, in some ways, that's that's the point of making art, isn't it? to force you? Right, right. But I also think we can, you know, we can't live in a place of hopelessness and that sense of, you know, all of the horrible things that have happened. And that kind of trauma, you know, because people have survived too much of it. And the fact that they've survived is not necessarily celebrated in the way that it should be, and, and, frankly, always be burdened by that trauma and having to kind of work through it. That's not fair to.
Host 1:10:26
That's not fair to Pete. Right? Right. The resiliency and what we built and how we responded, you know, like, this moment in US history is so crucial to me personally, because I'm seeing, oh, this must have been what, when I read moments from history books, this is what what it must have been like, in that time to know that, you know, the, the pharmacist down the street from me was, who got the vaccinations out, and this person, my next door neighbor, and being able to have a sense of, of what happened and feel a place of belonging, and that is such a it's such a powerful part of the resiliency, you know, that we were here, we did this, we loved each other, we, we, we protected one another. And this is how we did that is truly truly, truly inspiring, truly inspiring, and we, we have done it, we're doing it, we can do it again, we can survive, you know, and bounce back. And in the process of bouncing back. There's new cultural material culture, you know, there's new art, there's new platforms of connecting, and we will find our way back, you know, in the midst or from from, from this is my
Unknown Speaker 1:11:49
whole, I mean, I think this is where I've been reading a lot of indigenous scholarship, and black feminist scholarship. And I think this is what I mean, it's kind of mind boggling, you know, how generous people can continue to be it beyond, you know, any kind of expectation that you have for people. But I think that that has to be the hope that we hold on to, because without that sense of resilience, and you know, the, the term that I think a lot of indigenous scholars uses surviving, it's right, it's not just about surviving, it's really about continuing to thrive and to say, we're still here, we're still doing these things. Despite it all and frankly, you know, we we are, we are just ourselves, right? And I think that, that, to me, is always something that I look for, because there are just so many times where you think, well, what is the point? I'm just one person, I'm just, you know, doing this job, or whatever it is this project, this creative work, what does it even matter? And I think this is where, you know, the, the indigenous idea of like, thinking ahead, seven lifetimes, right? To me, the first time I heard that, I thought, well, that's, I mean, that's exhausting, right. But But I have seen it play out just in, you know, visiting archives, myself. And there it is, you know, maybe not seven generations later, but 70 years later, there it is just waiting for someone to find it, who needed to see that. And I think that that is what I what I kind of hoped for, for my work that, you know, whatever I will have done, I hope in the most ethical manner. And when I screw up, I hope that I have the courage to say I really, I really got it wrong. I'm sorry. But I hope that at the end of this work, that some person in the future will find it and say, I needed that. Right. And I can't put a metric on it. But But I just feel like it will come back. It's it's in the ether, right? Yeah.
Host 1:13:58
I think I think so. I think so in a big way. Is there a verado from history or contemporary time who you'd want to hang out with?
Unknown Speaker 1:14:08
Yes, I have. I even have a picture of her. So, picture. So this is her. So this is a woman painting a pot. And this is a pot dated to between 470 and 450 BCE, and she's the only she's the only woman we have working on a pot in ancient Athens. Everybody else. They're all males and they're not really very many pictures of women working. People working making pots in general. But this is the only woman we have working on a pot. And the scholarship really, you know, kind of talks about her sort of like, well, she's the she's the wife of the you know, the owner of the shop, she's and she's not doing anything particularly important. She's just kind of painting this issue. Just paint In the pot, not not with pictures, but with slip, just covering it over. And I would love to just have a few minutes talking to this woman, because the rest of the pod which I'm not showing you actually has all of these goddesses, including the goddess Athena herself coming down and placing wreaths on the men who are painting in this workshop, but she does not get one. But she's still sitting here quietly in the corner working. And the assumption has been, at least in some of the scholarship that she's, you know, to the side. She's not, she's not doing anything particularly important, but she's there. I just wonder, is that really the story here? Because, you know, she's Look at her, she's, she's quite well dressed, she has her hair back, she's sitting on a really nice, woven and dyed textile in a potter shop. That's pretty odd, right? But I just, I just want to know, so what, what's the deal? What are you
Host 1:16:03
actually doing? And that Athena is depicted on this,
Unknown Speaker 1:16:08
and this is this part was made, you know, at exactly the time when Athens is instituting all of these laws that are limiting, you know, these foreign workers from having political power and kind of agency in the city. Wow. And so you just wonder if she's one of these, you know, resident aliens, who's working and we have a special tax category for foreign residents were women who are working in the city. Is she one of these people? And what is her lifelike? Because we know, you know, from there's an amazing book by a scholar named Rebecca futo. Kennedy, who has been really looking into, like, what are these women's lives like, and they're difficult because they have no political power. They're constantly under kind of physical threat. They're all these ways in which they're, you know, they're really, you know, in danger of all kinds of things. very vulnerable, extremely. And so I just, I just really want to have a chat with this woman and say, so. So how are you? How are you doing? Like, what are you doing here?
Host 1:17:16
How are you dealing with what is sustaining you? How are you dealing with it? And of course, she's next to an empty pot. And I just, I would love to, you know, be sitting there saying, Are you making a drawing? Are you planning something here? You're gonna like, let me into your process. You know, maybe I'll meet her in the afterlife. Oh, I'm sure I'm sure that is. That is really cool. I love it. I love it. I'm really glad that I am decided to make this podcast. It's like, it's given me life. It is helping me with my survival. It's in a in a real way.
Okay, so thank you. Thank you sanchita for generously agreeing to speak with me this afternoon. Great thanks and gratitude for your ideas, your work the time that you have put into this year if the legacy that you have shared with with us this afternoon or whenever people are listening to this. I can't thank you. Thank you for having me. I cannot think it's it's really a joy. It's been such a joy. Thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of vanguard of the Viragoes. This conversation and more resources will be on the audio podcast and website. This is a whole world y'all. So check us out. And always remember, we are all on the vanguard of a changing time. Be the difference. Follow me and I can introduce you is last one didn't sound too curious.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai